Opposing Gates

[zhanx]

Hi, long time lurker, finally feel ready to make an account and post.

 

My question is on 'biners and opposing gates.

 

Should I get in the habit of putting the top of the gate in opposite direction also.

 

So that when they are opposing the gates also open in opposite direction?

 

Or is that going a bit far? After watching a ton of videos I don't think it matters much. But it never hurts to ask.

 

Since I got time to practice knots and such while waiting to get home from Iraq. I figured I could get all of them down in memory.

 

john

[summitchaserCJB]

Ya I think that is correct. I've always heard (but not always practiced because it is overkill but I'm fine with that) that opposite and opposing is ideal.

[mattp]

Why is it that opposite would be preferred? I have always thought that the gates are most often better off facing the same way (that is over 51% of the time) because if the gear or bolt is in some kind of vertically oriented corner it is better to have the gates facing away from that corner.

[summitchaserCJB]

In that specific case you are right. But the idea is that you want to minimize the chance of anything pushing the gates open (edge, branch, runner, whatever). If there is a clear and present threat such as an edge then I wouldn't make them opposing (facing different directions on the width axis). But otherwise opposite and opposing.

Edited March 28, 2010 by summitchaserCJB

[genepires]

Hey Matt, I think your situation described is a specific example and not really relevant to a "general rule" like the opposite and opposed is supposed to address. It would be a good idea in your example though.

 

The opposite and opposed is meant to replace a locking biner, something that should never be weakened by having a gate accidentally opened. By having the gates facing either way, you are ensuring that at least one gate is not accidentally being opened and therefore strong. If the gates were facing the same way, then having them pressed onto a knob or branch or whatever "could possibly" open both gates, reducing the strength of your connection to the anchor by a significant amount.

 

Now realistically, even with a gate open, the biners should be able to handle way more than body weight. (something like around 7KN which is roughly 7KN*250 lb per KN or 1750 pounds) It may fail on a fall factor 1. (I forget the specific forces for fall factors) So if two biners had opened gates, they would be able to hold ALOT.

 

But climbing is serious and it is always best to put everything in your favor so doing things text book is usually a good idea. Matt Perkins way of doing the both gates in one way for corners is a good idea and an example of doing risk assessment and adjusting techniques accordingly.

 

better yet, just use a locker. much lighter too.

 

oh yeah, thanks for the hard and dangerous work over there in iraq. I can't imagine what it is like.

Edited March 28, 2010 by genepires

[mattp]

I don't understand what is being said here. Maybe I missed something but is there a theory about where opposing gates are preferable? I tend toward trad climbing where my pro is in cracks or corners where, more than half the time, there IS no corner to worry about or there is some kind of vertical corner or crack where I'd like the gates facing the same direction. I'm guessing you guys have an explanation as to how opposing gates are preferable when there is no such concern.

 

Maybe I completely misunderstand the topic. I thought we were talking about the orientation of 'biners on draws. I guess "opposite and opposing" makes more sense in terms of doubling up 'biners to replicate a locking one.

[summitchaserCJB]

It was just stated but I'll try again. Basically opposite and opposing biners limits the chance that the gates will be opened. Simple as that.

We are talking about biners on any place where you'd usually use a locker.

[zhanx]

Ok it looks like I will continue with opposite and opposing gates. After all its practice and all that jazz right?

 

thanks genepires its mostly trying to stay busy now. The last couple times were a bit more fun.

[toproper]

If you find yourself toproping without locking biners the opposite and opposed could keep the rope from accidentally opening both gates when flicking the rope around a flake or out of a crack. It's conceivable that the rope could open both gates and come out of the anchor alltogether.

 

But nobody topropes without locking biners anymore except for a few old timers in mountain boots and wool knickers!

[genepires]

I use 1 locker and 3 non lockers for my TR's. but no mtn boots or knickers.

[Rad]

It's conceivable that the rope could open both gates and come out of the anchor all together.

 

Perhaps at a cc.com event we can set up a mock TR anchor with my old timer oval biners facing the same direction. I'd give you ten to one odds you can't flick the rope out of them in a hundred tries.

 

But nobody topropes without locking biners anymore except for a few old timers in mountain boots and wool knickers!

 

Seems like hardly anyone topropes any more anyway.

[spotly]

For TR, I use all lockers. One on each anchor bolt (of course) and two locking ovals at the rope (redundancy)- opposing gates. I'm sure it's overkill but that's my standard. I've also used just the QDs for setting up a TR on sport routes - sometimes with lockers and other times just opposing gates.

Edited March 29, 2010 by spotly

[JosephH]

Two opposed-gate, non-locking biners did and will always suffice. One or both being a locker is simply a matter of emotional comfort and protection against large numbers of very inexperienced people.

[mountainmandoug]

Two opposed-gate, non-locking biners did and will always suffice. One or both being a locker is simply a matter of emotional comfort and protection against large numbers of very inexperienced people.

 

Huh? I've used a locker on my top anchor many times and it never seems to keep the large numbers of very inexperienced people away.

[RaisedByPikas]

The gates need to make an X when opened.

 

If the top of your gates are pointed in opposite directions AND they are facing opposite directions then what happens if one of the biners flips around. Now they are both oriented the same way which is pointless.

Edited March 30, 2010 by RaisedByPikas

[sobo]

The gates need to make an X when opened.

 

If the top of your gates are pointed in opposite directions AND they are facing opposite directions then what happens if one of the biners flips around. Now they are both oriented the same way which is pointless.

I was going to say this very same thing, then I got to the bottom of the thread and found RBP's post.

RBP is exactly correct. The gates MUST BE MADE to form an "x" when opened. That will NOT HAPPEN if you arrange the gates as opposite and opposed. They will form a "slash" across the biners when opened (try it). While that may look fine to you, turn one of the biners around 180 degrees and now what do you see? Both gates are aligned and adjacent, and all that needs to happen now is for the rope to fall out. Precisely NOT what you were trying to achieve with "opposite and opposed", no?

 

Put the gates opposite and NOT opposed (have the hinges at the same end of the package). This will give you the "x" that you're looking for, and will still give you that "x" even if one of the biners spins around (gates would now no longer be opposite, but you will still make the "x"). Just check to be sure they make an "x" and you'll be fine. If it hasn't become obvious by now why you want the gates to make an "x", it's because that "x" will "trap" the rope within the biners if the gate(s) open, no matter what the orientation of the biners.

 

Or you could just buck up and buy some lockers...

[zhanx]

Good points on the rest.

 

Or you could just buck up and buy some lockers...

 

Now what fun would that be. Knowing how to use the equipment hand the right way IMO is important. If I am stuck out at X location in the pouring sleet with the temps dropping and need to bail. I got a draw, 2 two ropes and a locker. (I know crappy list but its the point that matters right?). I would be better off to have the fact in the back of my mind if i need to use non locking 'biners i need to make sure the form an "X" when opening so that my rope doesn't fall out while rappelling down.

 

My experience with ropes and lashings etc. is all military some of the stuff we do you would never do. Others are exactly the same just called something different.

 

Again thanks for the advice

[sobo]

It's all about knowing what you can do with what you have.

Improvisation is the key when equipment is running low.

 

Since I got time to practice knots and such while waiting to get home from Iraq. I figured I could get all of them down in memory.

You should probably also practice how to make a carabiner brake rappel package. You could drop your ATC someday...

Nice to have these little snippets of knowledge in your toolbox when the shit hits the fan.

 

[dennyt]

You should probably also practice how to make a carabiner brake rappel package. You could drop your ATC someday...

Nice to have these little snippets of knowledge in your toolbox when the shit hits the fan.

 

The Munter rappell is easier to remember than a carabiner brake, at least for me. And I use sports tape to turn a non-locker into a "locked" bail biner. Ghetto!

[summitchaserCJB]

You should probably also practice how to make a carabiner brake rappel package. You could drop your ATC someday...

Nice to have these little snippets of knowledge in your toolbox when the shit hits the fan.

 

The Munter rappell is easier to remember than a carabiner brake, at least for me. And I use sports tape to turn a non-locker into a "locked" bail biner. Ghetto!

Ghetto-but effective. (I'm gonna try that)

Edited March 31, 2010 by summitchaserCJB

[zhanx]

Munter Hitch got to love the ease of it.

 

 

I've been practicing all the basic knots to the point where i can almost tie them all one handed (amazing what you can learn to do in a year).

 

Along with anchor points. Recovery techniques like the Munter and the carabiner brake. Plus a couple of different Prussic knots used in a z pulley system.

 

Anything else that should be added to my list?

[spotly]

If I am stuck out at X location in the pouring sleet with the temps dropping and need to bail....

 

In this case, I'm throwing on a single biner and rapping with care. No need to sacrifice all of my gear. Don't get me wrong, whatever it takes to do it safely - I just happen to think you can rap off a single biner when needed. There are exceptions to every rule though and some raps are nastier than others.

 

If you're talking TR like the OP then that's another issue.

[sobo]

You should probably also practice how to make a carabiner brake rappel package. You could drop your ATC someday...

Nice to have these little snippets of knowledge in your toolbox when the shit hits the fan.

The Munter rappell is easier to remember than a carabiner brake, at least for me. And I use sports tape to turn a non-locker into a "locked" bail biner. Ghetto!

Yes, knowing how to tie, and when to use, a Muenter hitch, as well as "ghetto workarounds" for locking biners, are all equally valuable snippets of knowledge to add to the toolbox.

[genepires]

maybe check out the rock rescue books that are available when you get back stateside. Self rescue book by Fasulo in the "how to" series. Lots of good techniques and knots for rock rescue situations.

Edited April 2, 2010 by genepires

[froodish]

I was going to say this very same thing, then I got to the bottom of the thread and found RBP's post.

RBP is exactly correct. The gates MUST BE MADE to form an "x" when opened. That will NOT HAPPEN if you arrange the gates as opposite and opposed. They will form a "slash" across the biners when opened (try it). While that may look fine to you, turn one of the biners around 180 degrees and now what do you see? Both gates are aligned and adjacent, and all that needs to happen now is for the rope to fall out. Precisely NOT what you were trying to achieve with "opposite and opposed", no?

 

If by "flip 180 degrees" you mean to rotate around the axis parallel to the long sides of the 'biners, assuming that a rope/sling/etc. goes through both 'biners, there's no way that's gonna happen. And if by "rotate 180 degrees" you mean rotating around an axis that is perpendicular to the plane of the carabiner, then if that happens, properly reversed and opposed 'biners would still be reversed.

 

Reversed:

 

Reversed and Opposed: