ivan Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 peregrines are migratory birds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCamKenny Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migratory_Bird_Treaty_Act_of_1918 wikipedia?!? i had professors in college that said that wasn't an actual source for bibliography Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 peregrines are migratory birds? Yes, but not all migrate. Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918 makes it unlawful to pursue, hunt, take, capture, kill or sell birds. This has nothing to do with protecting nests...... They must think that law is weak. Here is a clear cut and seriously mean violation from just yesterday and they chose NOT to persue it. This jackass was a 3 time loser from prior convictions and probably the ideal candidate for the potential 5 years $25,000 fine violation of the act entails, yet they chose not to use the law and chose to charge only animal cruelty. Curious? No? "by Associated Press Posted on February 24, 2010 at 7:28 AM ****** SOUTH BEND, Wash. (AP) -- A young man who pleaded guilty to a felony count of animal cruelty in the slaughter of nearly 50 protected seabirds at Long Beach has been sentenced to 45 days in jail. Last June, 21-year-old Charles Belgard of Longview drove a Jeep at about 70 miles per hour on the ocean beach, plowing through several flocks of birds. The casualties were mostly Heermann's gulls and Caspian terns, which are protected under the federal Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918. Federal law provides for punishment as a misdemeanor. But the district attorney in Pacific County charged Belgard under Washington state law. Belgard has also been ordered to pay a $1,000 fine." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinp Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 They must think that law is weak. Here is a clear cut violation and they chose NOT to persue it. Yep... This is all foggy at best no? It does appear that all Wash State Parks are updating or creating Park Management Plans in conjunction with the 2013 centennial . According to the website: The planning process, also known as the Classification and Management Planning (CAMP), includes four stages: 1.Identify issues and concerns of park stakeholders. 2.Explore alternative approaches to address identified issues. 3.Prepare preliminary recommendations to address issues or suggest a realistic compromise. 4.Propose final recommendations for formal agency and Commission adoption. “Each park planning project will go through these four stages or some similar variation, depending on the particular park. People are encouraged to participate at every stage of a planning project. The process also reflects the standards set out in the State Environmental Policy Act (SEPA) and information collected through the planning effort will be used to satisfy SEPA requirements.” Although Beacon Rock is not currently listed on the website a phone conversation indicated that the Beacon staff are working towards updating there management plan. As part of the updating process the public will be given the opportunity to comment on the plan....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 As part of the updating process the public will be given the opportunity to comment on the plan....... that could be a fun party - unless it's like the commenting period option that arthur dent got in the hitchhiker's guide prior to the earth's demolition for an interstellar freeway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCamKenny Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 As part of the updating process the public will be given the opportunity to comment on the plan....... HINT, HINT, everyone... the time to speak up is NOW! if climbers EVER hope to have more than july-to-february climbing at beacon rock then this is where it starts. the voice needs to be of MANY! the observations of the birds done by the few can only help so much. the rest of the support for a better climbing future must come from the voices of those who climb there. if you climb there, even a little, then you should be speaking up and communicating your opinions for climbing. the only way anything will ever be changed is with many voices. if you accept what is as the be-all, end-all of the climbing plan at beacon rock then you are just laying down and giving up. anyone who tells you that climbing at beacon for 9 months out of the year is an unrealistic future is either too pessimistic about the chances of it or is just too accepting of what the authorities tell them and unwilling to form their OWN opinion. i hope that there are more supporters of this cause out there than just the few that spray here... it's gonna take waaaaaaay more voices! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinp Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 As part of the updating process the public will be given the opportunity to comment on the plan....... that could be a fun party - unless it's like the commenting period option that arthur dent got in the hitchhiker's guide prior to the earth's demolition for an interstellar freeway be sure to bring ur towel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCamKenny Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 As part of the updating process the public will be given the opportunity to comment on the plan....... that could be a fun party - unless it's like the commenting period option that arthur dent got in the hitchhiker's guide prior to the earth's demolition for an interstellar freeway ivan, even doug adams would say "WTF" to that post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 As part of the updating process the public will be given the opportunity to comment on the plan....... HINT, HINT, everyone... the time to speak up is NOW! if climbers EVER hope to have more than july-to-february climbing at beacon rock then this is where it starts. the voice needs to be of MANY! the observations of the birds done by the few can only help so much. the rest of the support for a better climbing future must come from the voices of those who climb there. if you climb there, even a little, then you should be speaking up and communicating your opinions for climbing. the only way anything will ever be changed is with many voices. if you accept what is as the be-all, end-all of the climbing plan at beacon rock then you are just laying down and giving up. anyone who tells you that climbing at beacon for 9 months out of the year is an unrealistic future is either too pessimistic about the chances of it or is just too accepting of what the authorities tell them and unwilling to form their OWN opinion. i hope that there are more supporters of this cause out there than just the few that spray here... it's gonna take waaaaaaay more voices! I agree the time is now. But the problem that I can see is that we the climbers are not all on the same page. Take the poll I started about Beacon. It appears there are folks out there who would prefer to have birds nesting at Beacon with a closure of some sort. All those folks please do not speak up. You do not speak for real Beacon climbers. It is bewildering to me that you would actually prefer a 6 month closure and have birds nesting than have birds nesting with no closure at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinp Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 It appears there are folks out there who would prefer to have birds nesting at Beacon with a closure of some sort. All those folks please do not speak up. You do not speak for real Beacon climbers. Anyone has the right to voice there opinion on the issue regardless of if it's in line with mine or yours. I myself am not exactly saying that Beacon should be open year round..... I would only like to see planning as it relates to the falcons and the climbers be consistent with laws and statutes set forth by state and federal government and not policy by “well this is how it is” ya know like the whole trail thang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCamKenny Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 It is bewildering to me that you would actually prefer a 6 month closure and have birds nesting than have birds nesting with no closure at all. closing from ground zero, west to jensens for a period for the birds would be acceptable to me if it meant that everything east of ground zero, and west of jensens were open if not the whole year than at least 9 months. with the birds around this would seem like a trade-off that i could accept pretty easily as a climber. as an emp. i can't really say since it isn't my department. the birds are there - that is a most unfortunate fact for the climber. but if the only possibility of getting more than six months to climb out there is to agree not to expect to ever have it year round again, then fine... get nine months instead. its still more than six. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 As part of the updating process the public will be given the opportunity to comment on the plan....... You have to be careful to clear about what you are talking about. There is the overall park management plan, there are individual project management plans, there is the Peregrine management plan, and there is the climbing management plan. Justin's reference above is above is to the park's overall management plan. The Peregrine management plan isn't approved or run by the BRSP, but rather by the WFDF. HINT, HINT, everyone... the time to speak up is NOW! ...the rest of the support for a better climbing future must come from the voices of those who climb there. ...if you climb there, even a little, then you should be speaking up and communicating your opinions for climbing. Definitely. anyone who tells you that climbing at beacon for 9 months out of the year is an unrealistic future is either too pessimistic about the chances of it or is just too accepting of what the authorities tell them and unwilling to form their OWN opinion. If you're speaking about me, then that would be entirely inaccurate. Again, I'd be climbing out there today - right now - if I could see a way to do it with either my voice alone or all of ours together. Unfortunately, holding very strong emotions and desires and wanting something to happen isn't enough unless you have some legal basis and framework to hang it on. I want to be free to climb out ther twelve months a year just like each and every one of you - and trust me, "they" know it as well - but without a legal 'hook' (which I can't see or find) the closure isn't going to be changing any time soon. And as a former photojournalist, I don't deal in opinions in such matters - my own, yours, or "theirs" - I deal with facts, realities on paper (laws and regulations), and the politics as I find, learn, or uncover them. As I keep saying, no one is going to be able to just leap to that issue and be taken seriously if they don't understand how the place is managed, what those folks deal with, and how the various stakeholders interact. So if you folks really want to do more than talk and get invovled you should consider starting by: - learning how the overall park, beyond just the rock, is managed and what that involves - understanding the implications of budget, staff, and resource constraints - becoming aware of the politics of and between the various stakeholders involved out there (BRSP, WSP Olympia, WDFW, WDAH, Gorge Commission, FS, BLM, county, railroad, tribes) - Understanding the process of managing climbing in WSP via Climbing Management Plans (CMPs) and Climbing Advisory Committees (CACs) - Realizing we have an outdated CMP that the BRSP gets dinged for every year, but hasn't been able to update due to staffing shortages, but that Erik is committed to completing now that Ben is onboard - Realizing that when the Climbing Advisory Committee gets reconsituted it will have great authority over the future of climbing at Beacon and Beacon locals may or may not have much representation on the CAC because in theory it's supposed to represent all climbing constituencies in WA (I personally don't want Beacon managed from Seattle or by PDX sport climbers). Again, Erik is determined to get the CMP updated and the CAC reconstituted, but between staffing issues and other priorities it has fortunately been put off year after year to-date; that won't be the case indefinitely as Erik gets dinged on it in his and the BRSP's management performance reviews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 It is bewildering to me that you would actually prefer a 6 month closure and have birds nesting than have birds nesting with no closure at all. You are illiterate, a simpleton, and / or steeped in so many years of senseless fantasy and adolescent denial that logic now completely fails you. Until you wake the fuck up you will remain among the victimal whiners who do nothing but spray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 closing from ground zero, west to jensens for a period for the birds would be acceptable to me if it meant that everything east of ground zero, and west of jensens were open if not the whole year than at least 9 months. You'd be better off picking a tunnel, something that can be referenced before leaving the ground. with the birds around this would seem like a trade-off that i could accept pretty easily as a climber. as an emp. i can't really say since it isn't my department. I agree that would be pretty acceptable to most climbers, but the closure boundaries are entirely consistent with closures around the country and it's pretty hard to make a case for what you want on any basis other than we'd like it. ...but if the only possibility of getting more than six months to climb out there is to agree not to expect to ever have it year round again, then fine... get nine months instead. its still more than six. Similarly, the timing and duration of the closure isn't dictated by our wants and needs or what we'd be willing to compromise on, but rather by the reproductive cycle of the Peregrines. Look, I'm not willing to agree on Beacon never being open year-round; but for now I work for early opens, verifiable changes of nesting off the South Face, and to understand the overall, long-term national Peregrine recovery efforts and the role Beacon plays in those. The Peregrines natural range and population is about 3/4 restored to historic levels and Beacon has played an important and successful role in the recovery to-date. In a few years (2015 or so) the population may be declared 'restored' or 'recovered' to their natural range and that would open an avenue for relaxing the closure. But even then the MBTA, WA state, and Audubon are likely to consider the Pergrine as a 'Sensitive' species and Beacon 'critical habitat' still deserving of some form of continuted protection even if scaled back. I won't be around in 2015 so some of you should start getting involved on some remotely objective basis if you ever want at chance of significantly changing things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Still open: In fact, folks are complaining that the cracks don't get enuf traffic and need more to stay clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 of course, i have both Fires and hair...could have been a while since I was there:-) Seriously fun splitter cracks, great pro. Not Beacon. opps, wrong thread......Sorry, back to the argueing....nevermind: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 If it were a matter of arguing, 'what we want', or 'what we'd accept' then Beacon would be open today. Unfortunately it's not - it's about realities of laws, stakeholder / inter-agency / regulatory politics, and science - but some folks just can't seem to grasp that idea, or are simply unwilling or unable to deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 and bill, the location of the secret rebel base is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 Lower Reptilia, but you'll need to know the secret bump to enter the command center elavator up on LoTLP... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinp Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 did not khow we were arguing (maybe give it ten minutes) Joe do you have copies of the WA F&W Peregrine Falcon Management Plan and/or the current Climbing Management Plan that you would be willing to post up? Also who is and how do you get a hold of the Climbing Advisory Committee that will be working with Eric? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 I do have a copy of a number of materials I need to scan and post up on the website I'm posting the monitoring to. Too slammed right now, but will be getting to it over the next month or so. The Climbing Advisory Committee isn't currently formed or active - who will be on it when it gets reconstituted is THE $64k question folks should be concerned about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvallisclimb Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 did not khow we were arguing (maybe give it ten minutes) Joe do you have copies of the WA F&W Peregrine Falcon Management Plan and/or the current Climbing Management Plan that you would be willing to post up? Also who is and how do you get a hold of the Climbing Advisory Committee that will be working with Eric? Hey Justin... What up with your obsession with Beacon, when I know you got so much climbing closer to home!! You seem like the black sheep when everone else really is stuck in the hell of PDX. Just a friendly question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinp Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Hey Justin... What up with your obsession with Beacon, when I know you got so much climbing closer to home!! You seem like the black sheep when everone else really is stuck in the hell of PDX. Just a friendly question Suppose It's cuz we have yet to get out togther.... It's kind of funny everyone that I meet up there... when they find out im from c'town they always say oh u must climb with tyler then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 did not khow we were arguing (maybe give it ten minutes) Joe do you have copies of the WA F&W Peregrine Falcon Management Plan and/or the current Climbing Management Plan that you would be willing to post up? Also who is and how do you get a hold of the Climbing Advisory Committee that will be working with Eric? Hey Justin... What up with your obsession with Beacon, when I know you got so much climbing closer to home!! You seem like the black sheep when everone else really is stuck in the hell of PDX. Just a friendly question maybe he's just been turned to the dark side of the force tyler? or maybe it's cuz we're all so fawking kewl up here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCamKenny Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 did not khow we were arguing (maybe give it ten minutes) Joe do you have copies of the WA F&W Peregrine Falcon Management Plan and/or the current Climbing Management Plan that you would be willing to post up? Also who is and how do you get a hold of the Climbing Advisory Committee that will be working with Eric? Hey Justin... What up with your obsession with Beacon, when I know you got so much climbing closer to home!! You seem like the black sheep when everone else really is stuck in the hell of PDX. Just a friendly question maybe he's just been turned to the dark side of the force tyler? or maybe it's cuz we're all so fawking kewl up here? definitely the latter, ivan! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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