Power drilling in Wilderness Areas

[Raindawg]

The moderator with his head in the sand, "Off-White", decided to shut down the revival of the "Infinite Bliss" topic.

I think it's still an issue and tossing it into the garbage pit of spray (where most ethical topics end up) doesn't make it go away.

 

*sigh*

 

Preiss's secondhand information, which is impossible to get any clarification on since he won't post it himself or engage in public discourse, is interesting.

 

What's uninteresting is everyone rehashing the exact same positions they held in the original version of this thread back in 2006. If you want to carry on the bullshit, go start a new, another, yet another thread in spray. Rather than clip some of this dreck out and send it to spray, I'm just going to lock it so the damned blabber stops.

 

Go play in spray if you must.

 

I was very serious when I posted the following:

 

As reported in Rock and Ice:

 

 

"Leland Windham and Steve Martin spent the summers of 2001 and 2002 working their way onto the route from the sides via ledge systems, rappelling the route and placing bolts with a power drill. What they didn’t know was that their route was in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness Area, in which, as in all designated wilderness, motorized equipment of any kind is prohibited.

 

Windham and Martin’s mistake was born from an inaccurate map. The two had researched their route using a USGS topographic quad, which did not reflect Mount Garfield’s acquisition into the wilderness area in 1981. The Forest Service was not very forgiving—its maps show the correct boundaries.

 

 

The alpine rap-bolting "route"-setters made a "mistake" with their outdated maps.

Now they should do the decent thing and fix their "mistake":

They themselves should remove the route.

 

So...without resorting to crass name-calling or other distractions, why might you agree or disagree with the idea of those guys cleaning up their mistake?

 

 

[LUCKY]

Thanks Offwhite

[ivan]

it they saw the light and went and cleaned it up themselves, i'd say they were doing the right thing

 

however, though i haven't climbed the route, it's in and its pretty popular and would get re-installed by hand likely by its devotees if chopped, which can only do more harm to the rock - so let it alone and no more power-drilling in this wilderness area

 

i don't see the sense in a bolt war being fought over it

 

reasonable enough dialouge, herr jones?

[Pete_H]

Just as I doubt anyone would have the motivation to unbolt IB I doubt anyone would have the motivation to rebolt it if it was unbolted.

[Raindawg]

reasonable enough dialouge, herr jones?

 

Thanks Ivan and Pete H. for your civilized imput.

 

Removing "I.B." would certainly be a chore and would likely take several days of hard work. I have the motivation but unfortunately not the time unless it was a group effort involving several others. I think Step 1 would be to propose that the guys who put it up, take it down.

There are also ways to conduct "restoration" in the process.

 

Would anyone afterwards attempt to restore it by hand-drilling? Given the amount of work it probably took to establish it even with a power drill, I doubt anyone would have the stamina.

 

It's an illegal route and in my opinion, it should be illegal.

[G-spotter]

It really comes down to the fact that those who find it objectionable should do the work to correct the problem. Telling someone else to do what you don't have the inclination to do yourself is just plain lazy.

[Off_White]

Comes right down to it Dawg, you're gonna bitch no matter what I do.

 

Note that there was no need to quote yourself, I left the pearls of your opinion intact and in situ.

[richard_noggin]

Fact: IB

It has been an established route since 2002

It sees multiple accents each year unlike any other route on Garfield.

It has seen speed accents and likely to see more.

There is not an access issue at this time.

There is no Difference in IB than the bolted slab lines in the wilderness area up north.

I have friends that climb it every year.

You could spend 2 summers chop’n the route but the route would be reestablished.

If it was chop’d it has already been decided it would be a climbing community effort to reestablish the route.

Raindawg and some of the others talk’n smack have not and will not ever climb the route.

 

Edited January 28, 2010 by richard_noggin

[Off_White]

Oh, for your serious reply: Note that when Smith & Cosgrove power drilled a variation on the Muir Wall when attempting a free route, neither the Park Service nor general climber opinion demanded that they (or anyone else) remove those bolts. Instead, the desired outcome of no one else power drilling on El Cap was achieved via all the publicity around their arrest.

 

Perhaps next you should go hassle those two into removing their illegally placed bolts. They both post on Supertopo, it should be relatively easy for you to get their attention.

 

 

[richard_noggin]

Edited January 28, 2010 by richard_noggin

[kevbone]

Once again. Super fun route. And since the point of climbing is to have fun. I give it 5 stars.

 

Sorry Rain. I know you hate this climb but I have to disagree with ya. On a personal level, I have to say I dont care about rap bolting in a wilderness area. Or breaking the law (when it comes to this topic), I am sure you have driven 56 in a 55 before. You get my point?

 

K

[richard_noggin]

Edited January 28, 2010 by richard_noggin

[StevenSeagal]

On a personal level, I have to say I dont care about rap bolting in a wilderness area. Or breaking the law (when it comes to this topic), I am sure you have driven 56 in a 55 before. You get my point?

 

Pretty lame, kevbone. While I generally don't hold a strong stand on stylistic ethics, when it comes to wilderness areas and impacts- and particularly things that get the USFS' or NPS' attention, I care very much. The way this route was put up turned some heads in the US government. Climbers doing things that could potentially have adverse affects on access for all of us is something you ought to care about. The fact that you enjoyed yourself on this route matters for shit measured against the bigger picture.

 

[Raindawg]

Rainpuss we all know what you are ...want to follow me on a day of real climbing, the coulee season is waiting, I'm older than you and can still crank and pull down....what a crotchety old phuk, your internet shit is getting old, go climb something

 

If you're referring to me, than the answer is a clear "No".

 

I SUPPORT CLIMBERS THAT ARE GIVING TO MY CLIMBING EXPERANCE

Oh yeah! as far as solo accents that i have done i have not even tryed to Document them, as we all know without a partner it’d dubious at best and it was for yourself and to state what you did is well, not what the solo was about in the first place

 

Thanks for the incoherent babbling.

Got anything to add to the topic under discussion?

 

 

[Raindawg]

Once again. Super fun route. And since the point of climbing is to have fun. I give it 5 stars.

 

Sorry Rain. I know you hate this climb but I have to disagree with ya. On a personal level, I have to say I dont care about rap bolting in a wilderness area. Or breaking the law (when it comes to this topic), I am sure you have driven 56 in a 55 before. You get my point?

 

K

 

My driving 56 miles per hour today doesn't necessarily affect the preservation of wilderness in the future for my grandchildren. Find another analogy.

[ivan]

 

My driving 56 miles per hour today doesn't necessarily affect the preservation of wilderness in the future for my grandchildren. Find another analogy.

i agree its not much of a comparision

 

the further creationof such routes would be a disaster i agree

 

this particuliar one however would not, nor will it trash the experience for generations to come - it takes a lot more than a few score bolts to fuck up a big ass wilderness, and we all know, in time, w/ the passing of man that this mtn will virtually instantaneously revert to a pristine state

[Bug]

I've worked on wilderness bills for 35 years.

One thing is clear.

 

There is a lot more money, intent, and power focused on permanently changing designated and undesignated wilderness areas than there is on preserving these areas in a pristine state.

 

If not for those who stand up for wilderness on principle there would be none. The sacrifices made by those who stood up for wilderness are far greater than the effort it took to power drill IB. Every inch you give up is gone for generations at best.

[Pete_H]

Once again. Super fun route. And since the point of climbing is to have fun. I give it 5 stars.

 

Sorry Rain. I know you hate this climb but I have to disagree with ya. On a personal level, I have to say I dont care about rap bolting in a wilderness area. Or breaking the law (when it comes to this topic), I am sure you have driven 56 in a 55 before. You get my point?

 

K

 

Kev, what part of shut your stupid fucking piehole don't you understand?

[keenwesh]

IB has created a hell of a shit storm, no one likes a shit storm, therefore, no one will put up another rap bolted route inside of a wilderness boundry. chill out, just the knowledge of some pieces of metal in a 2500 foot high piece of rock shouldn't have this much effect...

[Edlinger]

IB has created a hell of a shit storm, no one likes a shit storm, therefore, no one will put up another rap bolted route inside of a wilderness boundry.

 

Sadly this may not hold true in the future. It is my understanding that the developers of Infinite Bliss have historically not taken constructive feedback from others(even sport climbers) in regards to their route development choices.... whether at the the high routes OR at some of our local sport crags.

Ultimately, we all want the same things out of climbing. Only by working together and listening to even the minority voices, can we create routest for climbers of all styles to enjoy. This dialogue is totally different than the trad vs. sport panels of the 80's. This is about route quality. Yes a lot of us are getting our panties in a bunch, but if even one young climber reads all this banter about how Infinite Bliss should not ever be spoken of let alone climbed again, perhaps someday 10 years from now when they buy their first power drill (I love mine) they will put in great routes at the sport crag AND great adventure routes in the remote reaches of the Cascades.

[kevbone]

Kev, what part of shut your stupid fucking piehole don't you understand?

 

 

Well....lets see. I dont understand "shut" or "your" or "stupid", what does "fucking piehole" mean?

 

Can you help me please?

[Bug]

Turn off your computer and look outside.

You will feel better.

[richard_noggin]

Edited January 29, 2010 by richard_noggin

[Bug]

Once again proving,

 

It's all about you.

[richard_noggin]

IB has created a hell of a shit storm, no one likes a shit storm, therefore, no one will put up another rap bolted route inside of a wilderness boundry.

 

Sadly this may not hold true in the future. It is my understanding that the developers of Infinite Bliss have historically not taken constructive feedback from others(even sport climbers) in regards to their route development choices.... whether at the the high routes OR at some of our local sport crags.

Ultimately, we all want the same things out of climbing. Only by working together and listening to even the minority voices, can we create routest for climbers of all styles to enjoy. This dialogue is totally different than the trad vs. sport panels of the 80's. This is about route quality. Yes a lot of us are getting our panties in a bunch, but if even one young climber reads all this banter about how Infinite Bliss should not ever be spoken of let alone climbed again, perhaps someday 10 years from now when they buy their first power drill (I love mine) they will put in great routes at the sport crag AND great adventure routes in the remote reaches of the Cascades.

 

I think you are wrong here, I see one of the developers of IB regularly, mostly because I am in the loop of climber’s put’n up first accents, new crags and new routes in the NW ... he does take feedback from those that climb, but not from non climbing jerks spray’n shit on the internet.

Drag'n this topic up is just mank and spray’n shit just keeps the climbers on this site from free floating beta, so just keep talk’n smack, the route has become a NW classic and is here to stay.

TO ALL YOU SPRAY TALK'N WANKERS GO CLIMB SOMETHING, PUT UP YOUR OWN FIRST ACCENTS SO WE CAN TALK SMACK ABOUT YOU, WTF HAVE YOU DONE FOR MY CLIMBING EXPERANCE