kevbone Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 WTF is with this? This seems to be the thing of late. You free an existing aid line and you get to rename it. I think this is crap. So you climb it in a different style and you get call it something different. Lame! Quote
Dane Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Pretty common BITD. Didn't realise there was a bitch. East Face of the Column bacame Astroman. Certainly not the first accepted renaming. Many more renamed just like it. Big difference between A2/A3 stuff that was cutting edge at the time and the 5.11s that were cutting edge 10 or 15 years later. It becomes pretty obvious some lines are NOT the same climb when done free as opposed to being done on aid. But also obvious not every line gets renamed. I'd suspect you are fighting at least a 30, maybe a 40 year old tradition when it comes to aid climbs being renamed when done as free lines. Quote
Off_White Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 I assume this is about someone wanting to rename the Tempest Wall on CBR after freeing the roof pitch? Precedent runs both ways out in the world (Astroman anyone?) but on the balance I don't think things in the Cascades get renamed when someone frees them, especially if its an alpine route that follows the same line. I'm sure someone can come up with the exception to that idea though... BTW, this is not intended to make light of Tom's efforts, that's a pretty proud send by local alpine standards. Quote
kevbone Posted August 31, 2009 Author Posted August 31, 2009 I am not fighting anything. I just think it is a disrespect of those who came before you. Quote
Dane Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Sure there is some arrogance in renaming a route...but that is climbing. Doing the first free ascent of any aid line is a worthy accomplishment. I've renamed a few myself. And there was some immediate disrespect intended at times but much more there was crowing about the accomplishment. Both are generally short lived for everyone involved. You think Bachar, Kaulk and Long disrespect Hardings accomplishments on the East Face of WA Column? The Huber brothers for Robbins, Chouinard and Frost on NA? Me to Roskelley, Cooper or Becky? There is no disrespect for those that came before me/us. In fact just the opposite. Doubt anyone feels that way in this game. Amazing what has been done before us. You have to see the line (imagine climbing it in what ever style) and get there first. Most (but not all) first free ascents just means you were there when the gear, the community experience level and the physical skill level was higher than in years previous. That doesn't mean YOUR skills and experience levels are higher than the guys who made the 1st ascent. We all know that. If you don't realise that, go try a cutting edge route of 50 years ago with the same gear and approach the 1st ascent party used and see just how "good" you really are. But, isn't every free ascent a note worthy accomplishment for us as "climbers" over an aid ascent if no harm is done to the stone accomplishing that ascent? It is our nature as humans to name things that we find noteworthy. Mountains are a good example of something getting new names...is that disrespect to the native's who call the mtn something else? Bottom line is there is only ONE first ascent. We all know that too, no matter what we choose to call it or how we might define it Quote
Pilchuck71 Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Well said Dane. I personally still think that a climber doing a FFA should be glad to have the credit of doing so and not find the need to rename, but that is a just my opinion and everyone knows opinions are like assholes. Quote
kevbone Posted August 31, 2009 Author Posted August 31, 2009 Doing the first free ascent of any aid line is a worthy accomplishment. Agreed You think Bachar, Kaulk and Long disrespect Hardings accomplishments on the East Face of WA Column? The Huber brothers for Robbins, Chouinard and Frost on NA? Me to Roskelley, Cooper or Becky? Yes But, isn't every free ascent a note worthy accomplishment for us as "climbers" over an aid ascent if no harm is done to the stone accomplishing that ascent? Yes it is no argument there. But that is not the topic. It’s about renaming a route just because you climbed it in a different style. Mountains are a good example of something getting new names...is that disrespect to the native's who call the mtn something else? Yes, I think that to be a huge disrespect. Bottom line is there is only ONE first ascent. We all know that too, no matter what we choose to call it or how we might define it Correct. Seriously….do you think it would have been cool for Lynn Hill to rename “The Nose”? Would it stick? What would she name it? To me that would have been a joke. I know of a situation on a sporto route at a local crag, where the guy who established the route (cleaning, bolting, trundling) got hurt so he could not do the FFA. He put a red flag or tape on the first bolt and the locals respected this for almost 2 years. The climb had been top roped and freed. No one has even tried to lead it yet. Then another local who had different ethics stepped up and led it against the wishes of the FA party. He wanted to rename the route which already had a name that coincided with other routes in the area (the area had a theme). We talked him out of this……but it was the “idea” that he would rename this route simply because he climbed it in a “different” style that left a bad taste in my mouth. IMO I think the idea behind this concept is lame at best. Quote
kevbone Posted August 31, 2009 Author Posted August 31, 2009 I assume this is about someone wanting to rename the Tempest Wall on CBR after freeing the roof pitch? Yes this is what sparked this issue. Nice send Tom, but IMO, you are totally dissing the FA party. You dont get to rename this route. What a shitty thing to do. Quote
Kimmo Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 And if you go by the new way.....the FFA gets to rename the "free" version. Wonder what they will call it. hmmmm, is this kevbone's quote from another thread? not that i really give a damn about your droolings here, but at least keep it consistent. well i guess you do, in a sense. and yea lynn coulda named The Nose anything she wanted, but i imagine that since it was so ubiquitously known as The Nose, for what 20 years or more, she went with it. big deal anyways; a rose by any other name? Quote
dberdinka Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Maybe if a certain crowd hadn't shown so much enthusiasm to publicly disparage his efforts he wouldn't have been so inclined to give the route a new name. Though of course thats totally speculative on my part. Quote
Rad Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 big deal anyways; a rose by any other name? This is what it's all about: a great route is a great route. Period. btw, whoever freed the .12/11c roof on CBR west face didn't rename the whole route., right? Not sure who gave Cobra crack it's name, but I suspect it was Berthod. He and Trotter were both working the line and cheering each other on. When Trotter sent the FA when Didier was injured, Didier was there to encourage him. Trotter didn't rename the climb. So back to your quote, Trotter summed it up nicely when he said about Cobra, I don't care if mine was the first ascent, the tenth ascent, or the hundredth ascent. It's about a relationship between a climber and the rock. I'm just glad that it's there for me to do...that it's there for everyone to do. GREAT ATTITUDE. The few wimpy routes I've developed I strive to create something that other people will think is great. I'll freely admit that I succumb to that pride of authorship thing and want to do the FA after investing a lot of effort in cleaning and protecting a line (if it doesn't go trad), but maybe that pride of authorship drives me to do my best to generate a route others will think is great. Quote
Off_White Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 I'm curious about regional precedent. Dane, were the things you renamed on Chimney Rock? Era-wise, that was closer to Astroman than the present day, right? How many aid routes at Index have been renamed when they were freed? City Park springs to mind as a notable ascent where the route was not renamed. It doesn't seem like alpine routes in Washington have been renamed when bits of aid have been freed, can anyone think of any examples where that's happened? I don't think anything on the Liberty Bell group got renamed, Liberty Crack and Thin Red Line spring to mind as examples of no name change. Haven't most of the newly named El Cap free routes involved combinations and variations? El Nino doesn't fully follow the NA Wall line. Golden Gate is part Salathe, part Heart, and part something new. Secret Passage is part Eagles Way, part Bad To The Bone, and partly new. Excalibur follows the original line, and it didn't get renamed. Quote
kevbone Posted August 31, 2009 Author Posted August 31, 2009 And if you go by the new way.....the FFA gets to rename the "free" version. Wonder what they will call it. not that i really give a damn about your droolings here, but at least keep it consistent. Too bad you are not able to sense sarcasm when reading that statement. Quote
kevbone Posted August 31, 2009 Author Posted August 31, 2009 Not sure who gave Cobra crack it's name, but I suspect it was Berthod. Since you are speculating…..I will too. I suspect the person who named it was the first person to most likely aided it with aiders. Long before Trotter showed up. Quote
Kimmo Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Too bad you are not able to sense sarcasm when reading that statement. my bad. Quote
pope Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Maybe a name applied to the spectacular roof pitch is appropriate, at the discretion of the guy who freed it. On the other hand, there are plenty of 5.12 roofs around, and plenty of free climbs of similar length and difficulty. Free climbing this route doesn't compare to the breakthrough that Astroman represented. Quote
G-spotter Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Not sure who gave Cobra crack it's name, Croft and Knight in 81. Quote
DCramer Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 I'm curious about regional precedent. Dane, were the things you renamed on Chimney Rock? Era-wise, that was closer to Astroman than the present day, right? How many aid routes at Index have been renamed when they were freed? City Park springs to mind as a notable ascent where the route was not renamed. It doesn't seem like alpine routes in Washington have been renamed when bits of aid have been freed, can anyone think of any examples where that's happened? I don't think anything on the Liberty Bell group got renamed, Liberty Crack and Thin Red Line spring to mind as examples of no name change. Haven't most of the newly named El Cap free routes involved combinations and variations? El Nino doesn't fully follow the NA Wall line. Golden Gate is part Salathe, part Heart, and part something new. Secret Passage is part Eagles Way, part Bad To The Bone, and partly new. Excalibur follows the original line, and it didn't get renamed. Routes haven't been renamed at Index after they have been freed. Quote
matt_warfield Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 The Integral Route on the Diamond was renamed Casual Route after Charlie Fowler free solo'd and described it as such in an interview. No controversy there that I know of. In the old days there was a tendency to name routes by their location and aspect. Today, route names are creative in most cases, named by creative people. Obviously the Nose would not be renamed but few climbers would quibble with Astroman as a free route name. In the end, style and names may change, but the rock remains the same. It is the evolution of climbing. Quote
kevbone Posted August 31, 2009 Author Posted August 31, 2009 Obviously the Nose would not be renamed Why obviously? By this new standard, she could name it "screw you" or something stupid and the world would just have to live with it. Quote
G-spotter Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 Renaming aid routes that get freed has been part of the game for years. Always has been always will be. Quote
kevbone Posted August 31, 2009 Author Posted August 31, 2009 Renaming aid routes that get freed has been part of the game for years. Always has been always will be. Does not make it right. Quote
G-spotter Posted August 31, 2009 Posted August 31, 2009 The Shaft on El Cap is the free version of Muir Wall and it got a new name. Quote
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