KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 communist/socialists have it right, i agree - everybody should have basic healthcare (i'm not talking tit jobs or super-radical disease treatments now), why not? who decides what gets covered and what doesn't? and everybody should have to contriubte if they want to enjoy it (but naturally that can't include the elderly, the mentally/physically ill, the young, etc. what about the rich elderly? or a mentally ill person who inherited a fortune or managed to make one prior to become too ill to function? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choada_Boy Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Here's some food for thought: the Constitution of the Netherlands. Makes ours look kind of shitty by comparison. Check out Articles 20, 22 and 23. Chapter 1 Fundamental Rights Article 1 [Equality] All persons in the Netherlands shall be treated equally in equal circumstances. Discrimination on the grounds of religion, belief, political opinion, race, or sex or on any other grounds whatsoever shall not be permitted. Article 2 [Citizenship] (1) Dutch nationality shall be regulated by Act of Parliament. (2) The admission and expulsion of aliens shall be regulated by Act of Parliament. (3) Extradition may take place only pursuant to a treaty. Further regulations concerning extradition shall be laid down by Act of Parliament. (4) Everyone shall have the right to leave the country, except in the cases laid down by Act of Parliament. Article 3 [Eligibility Right] All Dutch nationals shall be equally eligible for appointment to public service. Article 4 [Right to Vote] Every Dutch national shall have an equal right to elect the members of the general representative bodies and to stand for election as a member of those bodies, subject to the limitations and exceptions prescribed by Act of Parliament. Article 5 [Petitions] Everyone shall have the right to submit petitions in writing to the competent authorities. Article 6 [Religion, Belief] (1) Everyone shall have the right to manifest freely his religion or belief, either individually or in community with others, without prejudice to his responsibility under the law. (2) Rules concerning the exercise of this right other than in buildings and enclosed places may be laid down by Act of Parliament for the protection of health, in the interest of traffic and to combat or prevent disorders. Article 7 [Expression] (1) No one shall require prior permission to publish thoughts or opinions through the press, without prejudice to the responsibility of every person under the law. (2) Rules concerning radio and television shall be laid down by Act of Parliament. There shall be no prior supervision of the content of a radio or television broadcast. (3) No one shall be required to submit thoughts or opinions for prior approval in order to disseminate them by means other than those mentioned in the preceding paragraphs, without prejudice to the responsibility of every person under the law. The holding of performances open to persons younger than sixteen years of age may be regulated by Act of Parliament in order to protect good morals. (4) The preceding paragraphs do not apply to commercial advertising. Article 8 [Association] The right of association shall be recognized. This right may be restricted by Act of Parliament in the interest of public order. Article 9 [Assembly] (1) The right of assembly and demonstration shall be recognized, without prejudice to the responsibility of everyone under the law. (2) Rules to protect health, in the interest of traffic and to combat or prevent disorders may be laid down by Act of Parliament. Article 10 [Privacy] (1) Everyone shall have the right to respect for his privacy, without prejudice to restrictions laid down by or pursuant to Act of Parliament. (2) Rules to protect privacy shall be laid down by Act of Parliament in connection with the recording and dissemination of personal data. (3) Rules concerning the rights of persons to be informed of data recorded concerning them and of the use that is made thereof, and to have such data corrected shall be laid down by Act of Parliament. Article 11 [Personal Integrity] Everyone shall have the right to inviolability of his person, without prejudice to restrictions laid down by or pursuant to Act of Parliament. Article 12 [Home] (1) Entry into a home against the will of the occupant shall be permitted only in the cases laid down by or pursuant to Act of Parliament, by those designated for the purpose by or pursuant to Act of Parliament. (2) Prior identification and notice of purpose shall be required in order to enter a home under the preceding paragraph, subject to the exceptions prescribed by Act of Parliament. A written report of the entry shall be issued to the occupant. Article 13 [secrecy of Communication] (1) The privacy of correspondence shall not be violated except, in the cases laid down by Act of Parliament, by order of the courts. (2) The privacy of the telephone and telegraph shall not be violated except, in the cases laid down by Act of Parliament, by or with the authorization of those designated for the purpose by Act of Parliament. Article 14 [Property] (1) Expropriation may take place only in the public interest and on prior assurance of full compensation, in accordance with regulations laid down by or pursuant to Act of Parliament. (2) Prior assurance of full compensation shall not be required if in an emergency immediate expropriation is called for. (3) In the cases laid down by or pursuant to Act of Parliament there shall be a right to full or partial compensation if in the public interest the competent authority destroys property or renders it unusable or restricts the exercise of the owner's rights to it. Article 15 [Personal Liberty, Arrest] (1) Other than in the cases laid down by or pursuant to Act of Parliament, no one may be deprived of his liberty. (2) Anyone who has been deprived of his liberty other than by order of a court may request a court to order his release. In such a case he shall be heard by the court within a period to be laid down by Act of Parliament. The court shall order his immediate release if it considers the deprivation of liberty to be unlawful. (3) The trial of a person who has been deprived of his liberty pending trial shall take place within a reasonable period. (4) A person who has been lawfully deprived of his liberty may be restricted in the exercise of fundamental rights in so far as the exercise of such rights is not compatible with the deprivation of liberty. Article 16 [Nulla Poena Sine Lege] No offence shall be punishable unless it was an offence under the law at the time it was committed. Article 17 [Right to be Heard] No one may be prevented against his will from being heard by the courts to which he is entitled to apply under the law. Article 18 [Right to Counsel] (1) Everyone may be legally represented in legal and administrative proceedings. (2) Rules concerning the granting of legal aid to persons of limited means shall be laid down by Act of Parliament. Article 19 [Work] (1) It shall be the concern of the authorities to promote the provision of sufficient employment. (2) Rules concerning the legal status and protection of working persons and concerning co-determination shall be laid down by Act of Parliament. (3) The right of every Dutch national to a free choice of work shall be recognized, without prejudice to the restrictions laid down by or pursuant to Act of Parliament. Article 20 [Welfare] (1) It shall be the concern of the authorities to secure the means of subsistence of the population and to achieve the distribution of wealth. (2) Rules concerning entitlement to social security shall be laid down by Act of Parliament. (3) Dutch nationals resident in the Netherlands who are unable to provide for themselves shall have a right, to be regulated by Act of Parliament, to aid from the authorities. Article 21 [Environment] It shall be the concern of the authorities to keep the country habitable and to protect and improve the environment. Article 22 [Health] (1) The authorities shall take steps to promote the health of the population. (2) It shall be the concern of the authorities to provide sufficient living accommodation. (3) The authorities shall promote social and cultural development and leisure activities. Article 23 [Education] (1) Education shall be the constant concern of the Government. (2) All persons shall be free to provide education, without prejudice to the authorities' right of supervision and, with regard to forms of education designated by law, its right to examine the competence and moral integrity of teachers, to be regulated by Act of Parliament. (3) Education provided by public authorities shall be regulated by Act of Parliament, paying due respect to everyone's religion or belief. (4) The authorities shall ensure that primary education is provided in a sufficient number of public-authority schools in every municipality. Deviations from this provision may be permitted under rules to be established by Act of Parliament on condition that there is opportunity to receive the said form of education. (5) The standards required of schools financed either in part or in full from public funds shall be regulated by Act of Parliament, with due regard, in the case of private schools, to the freedom to provide education according to religious or other belief. (6) The requirements for primary education shall be such that the standards both of private schools fully financed from public funds and of public-authority schools are fully guaranteed. The relevant provisions shall respect in particular the freedom of private schools to choose their teaching aids and to appoint teachers as they see fit. (7) Private primary schools that satisfy the conditions laid down by Act of Parliament shall be financed from public funds according to the same standards as public-authority schools. The conditions under which private secondary education and pre-university education shall receive contributions from public funds shall be laid down by Act of Parliament. (8) The Government shall submit annual reports on the state of education to the Parliament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Here's some food for thought: the Constitution of the Netherlands. Makes ours look kind of shitty by comparison. Check out Articles 20, 22 and 23. Chapter 1 Fundamental Rights Article 1 [Equality] All persons in the Netherlands shall be treated equally in equal circumstances. Discrimination on the grounds of religion, belief, political opinion, race, or sex or on any other grounds whatsoever shall not be permitted. Article 2 [Citizenship] (1) Dutch nationality shall be regulated by Act of Parliament. (2) The admission and expulsion of aliens shall be regulated by Act of Parliament. (3) Extradition may take place only pursuant to a treaty. Further regulations concerning extradition shall be laid down by Act of Parliament. (4) Everyone shall have the right to leave the country, except in the cases laid down by Act of Parliament. Article 3 [Eligibility Right] All Dutch nationals shall be equally eligible for appointment to public service. Article 4 [Right to Vote] Every Dutch national shall have an equal right to elect the members of the general representative bodies and to stand for election as a member of those bodies, subject to the limitations and exceptions prescribed by Act of Parliament. Article 5 [Petitions] Everyone shall have the right to submit petitions in writing to the competent authorities. Article 6 [Religion, Belief] (1) Everyone shall have the right to manifest freely his religion or belief, either individually or in community with others, without prejudice to his responsibility under the law. (2) Rules concerning the exercise of this right other than in buildings and enclosed places may be laid down by Act of Parliament for the protection of health, in the interest of traffic and to combat or prevent disorders. Article 7 [Expression] (1) No one shall require prior permission to publish thoughts or opinions through the press, without prejudice to the responsibility of every person under the law. (2) Rules concerning radio and television shall be laid down by Act of Parliament. There shall be no prior supervision of the content of a radio or television broadcast. (3) No one shall be required to submit thoughts or opinions for prior approval in order to disseminate them by means other than those mentioned in the preceding paragraphs, without prejudice to the responsibility of every person under the law. The holding of performances open to persons younger than sixteen years of age may be regulated by Act of Parliament in order to protect good morals. (4) The preceding paragraphs do not apply to commercial advertising. Article 8 [Association] The right of association shall be recognized. This right may be restricted by Act of Parliament in the interest of public order. Article 9 [Assembly] (1) The right of assembly and demonstration shall be recognized, without prejudice to the responsibility of everyone under the law. (2) Rules to protect health, in the interest of traffic and to combat or prevent disorders may be laid down by Act of Parliament. Article 10 [Privacy] (1) Everyone shall have the right to respect for his privacy, without prejudice to restrictions laid down by or pursuant to Act of Parliament. (2) Rules to protect privacy shall be laid down by Act of Parliament in connection with the recording and dissemination of personal data. (3) Rules concerning the rights of persons to be informed of data recorded concerning them and of the use that is made thereof, and to have such data corrected shall be laid down by Act of Parliament. Article 11 [Personal Integrity] Everyone shall have the right to inviolability of his person, without prejudice to restrictions laid down by or pursuant to Act of Parliament. Article 12 [Home] (1) Entry into a home against the will of the occupant shall be permitted only in the cases laid down by or pursuant to Act of Parliament, by those designated for the purpose by or pursuant to Act of Parliament. (2) Prior identification and notice of purpose shall be required in order to enter a home under the preceding paragraph, subject to the exceptions prescribed by Act of Parliament. A written report of the entry shall be issued to the occupant. Article 13 [secrecy of Communication] (1) The privacy of correspondence shall not be violated except, in the cases laid down by Act of Parliament, by order of the courts. (2) The privacy of the telephone and telegraph shall not be violated except, in the cases laid down by Act of Parliament, by or with the authorization of those designated for the purpose by Act of Parliament. Article 14 [Property] (1) Expropriation may take place only in the public interest and on prior assurance of full compensation, in accordance with regulations laid down by or pursuant to Act of Parliament. (2) Prior assurance of full compensation shall not be required if in an emergency immediate expropriation is called for. (3) In the cases laid down by or pursuant to Act of Parliament there shall be a right to full or partial compensation if in the public interest the competent authority destroys property or renders it unusable or restricts the exercise of the owner's rights to it. Article 15 [Personal Liberty, Arrest] (1) Other than in the cases laid down by or pursuant to Act of Parliament, no one may be deprived of his liberty. (2) Anyone who has been deprived of his liberty other than by order of a court may request a court to order his release. In such a case he shall be heard by the court within a period to be laid down by Act of Parliament. The court shall order his immediate release if it considers the deprivation of liberty to be unlawful. (3) The trial of a person who has been deprived of his liberty pending trial shall take place within a reasonable period. (4) A person who has been lawfully deprived of his liberty may be restricted in the exercise of fundamental rights in so far as the exercise of such rights is not compatible with the deprivation of liberty. Article 16 [Nulla Poena Sine Lege] No offence shall be punishable unless it was an offence under the law at the time it was committed. Article 17 [Right to be Heard] No one may be prevented against his will from being heard by the courts to which he is entitled to apply under the law. Article 18 [Right to Counsel] (1) Everyone may be legally represented in legal and administrative proceedings. (2) Rules concerning the granting of legal aid to persons of limited means shall be laid down by Act of Parliament. Article 19 [Work] (1) It shall be the concern of the authorities to promote the provision of sufficient employment. (2) Rules concerning the legal status and protection of working persons and concerning co-determination shall be laid down by Act of Parliament. (3) The right of every Dutch national to a free choice of work shall be recognized, without prejudice to the restrictions laid down by or pursuant to Act of Parliament. Article 20 [Welfare] (1) It shall be the concern of the authorities to secure the means of subsistence of the population and to achieve the distribution of wealth. (2) Rules concerning entitlement to social security shall be laid down by Act of Parliament. (3) Dutch nationals resident in the Netherlands who are unable to provide for themselves shall have a right, to be regulated by Act of Parliament, to aid from the authorities. Article 21 [Environment] It shall be the concern of the authorities to keep the country habitable and to protect and improve the environment. Article 22 [Health] (1) The authorities shall take steps to promote the health of the population. (2) It shall be the concern of the authorities to provide sufficient living accommodation. (3) The authorities shall promote social and cultural development and leisure activities. Article 23 [Education] (1) Education shall be the constant concern of the Government. (2) All persons shall be free to provide education, without prejudice to the authorities' right of supervision and, with regard to forms of education designated by law, its right to examine the competence and moral integrity of teachers, to be regulated by Act of Parliament. (3) Education provided by public authorities shall be regulated by Act of Parliament, paying due respect to everyone's religion or belief. (4) The authorities shall ensure that primary education is provided in a sufficient number of public-authority schools in every municipality. Deviations from this provision may be permitted under rules to be established by Act of Parliament on condition that there is opportunity to receive the said form of education. (5) The standards required of schools financed either in part or in full from public funds shall be regulated by Act of Parliament, with due regard, in the case of private schools, to the freedom to provide education according to religious or other belief. (6) The requirements for primary education shall be such that the standards both of private schools fully financed from public funds and of public-authority schools are fully guaranteed. The relevant provisions shall respect in particular the freedom of private schools to choose their teaching aids and to appoint teachers as they see fit. (7) Private primary schools that satisfy the conditions laid down by Act of Parliament shall be financed from public funds according to the same standards as public-authority schools. The conditions under which private secondary education and pre-university education shall receive contributions from public funds shall be laid down by Act of Parliament. (8) The Government shall submit annual reports on the state of education to the Parliament. cool - move to Netherlands! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 If I can summarize a few others views. I'm not sure everyone is signing on that it's the Governments place to get in and be mom and dad here. Perhaps I can illustrate by asking this way: Can we not all agree that food and water are basic and critical necessities and more important than health care? Does it then not follow that the Gov't is responsible for making sure everyone is fed ? funny - the anti drug-legalization crowd makes its stand on taht issue - they say it is governmetn's place to be ma'n'pa n' protect you from your own bad decisions - if they were consistent, they'd be for universal care as to the second point, yes, bill, though i don't think it's "government's" so much as "society's" obligation to see that all are fed (and that extends to healthcare i reckon - it's just that folks donate money/food/service to soup kitchens, not so much to meaningful healthcare for the poor, sick n' downtrodden) how many people starve to death in the usa? how many die b/c of no/shitty healthcare? it's a rhetorical question of course, but i seriously doubt the former outnumber the later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choada_Boy Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 I'd rather stay here and continue my efforts in turning this place into a true Utopia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 time for a little non-seqs [video:youtube]KEK4RJ3hnZc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 and everybody should have to contriubte if they want to enjoy it (but naturally that can't include the elderly, the mentally/physically ill, the young, etc. what about the rich elderly? or a mentally ill person who inherited a fortune or managed to make one prior to become too ill to function? i'm w/ you - once you get down to details, the issues become so complex its really a hell of a lot easier to just throw up yer hands n' say "everyone, no matter what" - okay, you've been a dickhead your whole life and done nothign other than climb rocks - but you've hit 65 now so you can live off the governmetn tit (at least as far as healthcare goes) from now on please don't misunderstand me as being simple-simon on socialist/communist healthcare - i'm aware those who lived under it didn't like it - a hybrid system doens't seem doomed to failure - a meaningful free option, based somehow on having worked for most your life, if you could, but still private options that can enhance the baseline option Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 If I can summarize a few others views. I'm not sure everyone is signing on that it's the Governments place to get in and be mom and dad here. Perhaps I can illustrate by asking this way: Can we not all agree that food and water are basic and critical necessities and more important than health care? Does it then not follow that the Gov't is responsible for making sure everyone is fed ? funny - the anti drug-legalization crowd makes its stand on taht issue - they say it is governmetn's place to be ma'n'pa n' protect you from your own bad decisions - if they were consistent, they'd be for universal care as to the second point, yes, bill, though i don't think it's "government's" so much as "society's" obligation to see that all are fed (and that extends to healthcare i reckon - it's just that folks donate money/food/service to soup kitchens, not so much to meaningful healthcare for the poor, sick n' downtrodden) how many people starve to death in the usa? how many die b/c of no/shitty healthcare? it's a rhetorical question of course, but i seriously doubt the former outnumber the later. you're dodging the question dude. we have millions of homeless and millions who go hungry every day. It's hard to believe with all the lardasses, but it's true. Why doesn't the gov't ENSURE that everyone has a warm, dry, clean place to live, and 3 square meals a day. Universally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 you're dodging the question dude. we have millions of homeless and millions who go hungry every day. It's hard to believe with all the lardasses, but it's true. Why doesn't the gov't ENSURE that everyone has a warm, dry, clean place to live, and 3 square meals a day. Universally. Because it has to scare the shit out of people to get them to work in meaningless jobs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 I'd rather stay here and continue my efforts in turning this place into a true Utopia. "utopia" means "nowhere" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 The idea that everyone in a society should pull their own weight has little to no meaning whatsoever. Pull what weight, exactly? What kind of weight should a 5 year old pull? An 86 year old? Trig, the Down's Syndrome Celebrity? A heroin addict? An Olympic athlete who otherwise doesn't work? The village idiot? The person who will someday cure cancer, and yet who weighs 900 lbs, smokes like a chimney, and consumes enormous amounts of health care of all kinds? A 'hard working American' who spends 90% of his 'productive time' spraying on the interwebs? In societies of all sizes and levels of wealth, since the beginning of time, those who can have subsidized the well being and survival of those who cannot. The extent to which a society does that or not marks it's level of humanity and or level of surplus. To think it has, or can ever, work any other way among the angry hairless monkeys is to be an utter fucking fool. We are drowning in surplus in this country, even after 'the crash'. We can afford universal health care for all, regardless of ability to pay, EASILY. We can also afford housing for all and a whole host of other things we choose not to; a testament to our humanity or lack thereof. Frankly, I find the choices we've collectively made in this country pretty fucking disgusting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Because it has to scare the shit out of people to get them to work in meaningless jobs? I'll bet I consider "meaningless" what you consider "meaningful" - and vice versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 I'd rather stay here and continue my efforts in turning this place into a true Utopia. "utopia" means "nowhere" You-topia evaporates the moment a second angry hairless monkey appears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 you're dodging the question dude. we have millions of homeless and millions who go hungry every day. It's hard to believe with all the lardasses, but it's true. Why doesn't the gov't ENSURE that everyone has a warm, dry, clean place to live, and 3 square meals a day. Universally. the question was food, not housing, but okay i'm still w/ you - i repeat the above: society, be it the government, churches, groups of concerned citizens, businesses, whatever, needs to ensure taht all humans have all their basic needs secured: those being security, food, shelter, etc. in return, society, comprised of all the elements listed above, has a right to expect that individuals will make some contribution themselves. government is like the president - the buck stops w/ it - if people are starving, homeless, w/o healthcare, the responsibilty devoles upon it to meet the demand - it is reasonable to expect that in return the government will demand of its citizens material support, which usually takes the form of taxes as a side note, how many skinny homeless folks have you seen? most seem pretty thick to me - food in the era of agri-business seems to have totally banished starvation - healthcare is the new frontier, ironically includign treating the diseases associated w/ overeating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Because it has to scare the shit out of people to get them to work in meaningless jobs? I'll bet I consider "meaningless" what you consider "meaningful" - and vice versa. you guys should check into nihilism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Because it has to scare the shit out of people to get them to work in meaningless jobs? I'll bet I consider "meaningless" what you consider "meaningful" - and vice versa. you guys should check into nihilism Ivan - prole is one of those fucks who thinks any real "work" is beneath him (and others). A "meaningful" job is one that meets his inflated view of his self-importance, and contributes nothing of substance. Shovelling horse shit all day or picking fruit is more meaningful than anything that Prole will ever do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 The idea that everyone in a society should pull their own weight has little to no meaning whatsoever. Pull what weight, exactly? What kind of weight should a 5 year old pull? An 86 year old? Trig, the Down's Syndrome Celebrity? A heroin addict? An Olympic athlete who otherwise doesn't work? The village idiot? The person who will someday cure cancer, and yet who weighs 900 lbs, smokes like a chimney, and consumes enormous amounts of health care of all kinds? A 'hard working American' who spends 90% of his 'productive time' spraying on the interwebs? In societies of all sizes and levels of wealth, since the beginning of time, those who can have subsidized the well being and survival of those who cannot. The extent to which a society does that or not marks it's level of humanity and or level of surplus. To think it has, or can ever, work any other way among the angry hairless monkeys is to be an utter fucking fool. it's also just good common sense to support the "lower class" -when they get riled up, heads roll! true, tv and the interweb are amazingly opiatic, but sooner or later a critical mass will still form Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Ivan - prole is one of those fucks who thinks any real "work" is beneath him (and others). A "meaningful" job is one that meets his inflated view of his self-importance, and contributes nothing of substance. Shovelling horse shit all day or picking fruit is more meaningful than anything that Prole will ever do. that might be true KK, but i've never met him (or you for that matter) - prole, what the fuck do you do? speaking of "earnign your keep" - do the following guys qualify? thoreau when writing "on walden pond"? hillary when clibing everest? jeus when wandering through the desert for 40 days n' nights? or buddha during his long ass break under the bodhi tree? mohammed in the cave? joe smith digging up his norht 40 looking for golden tablets? tvash's point about valuating labor is valid - it's an impossible/semantic/value based judgement that defeats us - let's resign ourselves to supporting everybody and resolve to just speak ill of the free loading bastards on the interwbes afterall, how many doorknob relatives do YOU have? as family, you grin n' bear it, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Shovelling horse shit all day... You've got that market cornered all by yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 speaking of "earnign your keep" - do the following guys qualify? thoreau when writing "on walden pond"? hillary when clibing everest? jeus when wandering through the desert for 40 days n' nights? or buddha during his long ass break under the bodhi tree? mohammed in the cave? joe smith digging up his norht 40 looking for golden tablets? I think you had it right before - "earning your keep" could be construed as "from each according to his ability". All the people you mention did meaningful things. There is also dignity to someone who picks fruit, farms, fishes, cleans toilets, collects garbage, etc. It always chafes me to hear some POS talk about some job as if it is "beneath him" (meaningless). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Shovelling horse shit all day... You've got that market cornered all by yourself. in your case, you're trying to feed people horseshit and tell 'em it's a gourmet meal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choada_Boy Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 "We need more Trigs, not fewer." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 speaking of "earnign your keep" - do the following guys qualify? thoreau when writing "on walden pond"? hillary when clibing everest? jeus when wandering through the desert for 40 days n' nights? or buddha during his long ass break under the bodhi tree? mohammed in the cave? joe smith digging up his norht 40 looking for golden tablets? I think you had it right before - "earning your keep" could be construed as "from each according to his ability". All the people you mention did meaningful things. There is also dignity to someone who picks fruit, farms, fishes, cleans toilets, collects garbage, etc. It always chafes me to hear some POS talk about some job as if it is "beneath him" (meaningless). my point is most people in thier day and age would have considered their contributions to be meaningless i haven't met any folks that i can think of who consider any work "beneath them" - my brother was an armor officer and 2 time iraq vet when he got out a few months ago and took a bullshit security guard job at mcminamins - he's pretty damn normal dude, and who's gonna starve if being a janitor will pay the bills? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 i haven't met any folks that i can think of who consider any work "beneath them" Ivan, meet Prole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 "We need more Trigs, not fewer." dude, did you see "idiocarcy"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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