Sport vs Trad

[sobo]

I'm just here to turn the page... CROTCHETY OLD

 

fixt the spelling for ya, too...

[pigchampion]

ding...

[billcoe]

Where's Drew to claim the pagetop? Maybe he's smarter than the rest of us and is out climbing instead of yammering senseless things online.

 

Since Dawg seems to be avoiding discussing my response to his post, I'm left reflecting if it might be time to post a few more Lil Dawg pics? Of course the answer is self-evident to all:-)

 

 

 

What Feck says about the ivy is true. Bolts are a total NON-event and NO-issue and not just in relation to these other things. Once the Ivy starts hitting some of the established Doug Fir Forests the debate will be radically shifting from a few inert, non-threatening, no-issue in fact environmentally friendly bolts to discuss invasive Zebra Mussels and English Ivy costing us millions and millions of dollars.

 

In either case, bolted routes are more leave no trace than any leave no trace hiking trail. PERIOD.

 

Regards to all

Bill

 

Oh, this is for Dawg: His namesake at work.

1/2-13 x 6-1/4 Stainless Steel ICC rated Wedge Anchor.

Torquing to 53 foot lbs. (50-60 foot lbs is the spec for 1/2" diameter wedge anchors, at 53, if the wrench breaks at 53 and you are mid-yard, the carry through/extra few inches of pull will keep you under 60)

Voila!

 

Ready for the yellow horde/locust/buffalo invasion.

[pope]

In honor of Johnny (he liked it when I called him that, that was just between us friends) I declare the new purest ethic is if you fall while leading, the only fair means of ascent is free solo, or else you're Richard Simmons.

 

Prior to this post and the one you made immediately after, I thought you were just a harmless, fun guy with a big mouth. Now I think you're either ignorant or a real prick. Whether Bachar intended it (and I assume he did), the statement made by his solo of Father Figure, as interpreted by most, was that the traditional approach to climbing is superior. One could climb hard numbers, in more control and with greater safety by investing the time to learn the ground-up approach. Bachar was well beyond his prime at this point and yet he made child's play out of Cosgrove's route, making every move static. This was a demonstration of excellence, an inspiration and example of what's possible when climbers are willing to focus their efforts instead of taking the most expedient, most convenient way, wilderness be damned. The route, BTW, is short and includes maybe only four bolts. Would have made for an excellent top-rope climb and provided enjoyment equal to what the sport version offers.

 

I was certainly amazed by Bachar's solo ascents. Who wasn't? More impressive to me is that he resisted rap bolting and sport climbing, in an attempt to preserve what was great about American rock climbing and avoid the eventual and predictable grid bolting we see today. In retrospect, he sacrificed his professional career by choosing to do the right thing.

Edited August 9, 2009 by pope

[el jefe]

In honor of Johnny (he liked it when I called him that, that was just between us friends) I declare the new purest ethic is if you fall while leading, the only fair means of ascent is free solo, or else you're Richard Simmons.

 

Prior to this post and the one you made immediately after, I thought you were just a harmless, fun guy with a big mouth. Now I think you're either ignorant or a real prick. Whether Bachar intended it (and I assume he did), the statement made by his solo of Father Figure, as interpreted by most, was that the traditional approach to climbing is superior. One could climb hard numbers, in more control and with greater safety by investing the time to learn the ground-up approach. Bachar was well beyond his prime at this point and yet he made child's play out of Cosgrove's route, making every move static. This was a demonstration of excellence, an inspiration and example of what's possible when climbers are willing to focus their efforts instead of taking the most expedient, most convenient way, wilderness be damned. The route, BTW, is short and includes maybe only four bolts. Would have made for an excellent top-rope climb and provided enjoyment equal to what the sport version offers.

 

I was certainly amazed by Bachar's solo ascents. Who wasn't? More impressive to me is that he resisted rap bolting and sport climbing, in an attempt to preserve what was great about American rock climbing and avoid the eventual and predictable grid bolting we see today. In retrospect, he sacrificed his professional career by choosing to do the right thing.

 

blahblahblahblah

[kevbone]

I was certainly amazed by Bachar's solo ascents. Who wasn't? More impressive to me is that he resisted rap bolting and sport climbing, in an attempt to preserve what was great about American rock climbing and avoid the eventual and predictable grid bolting we see today. In retrospect, he sacrificed his professional career by choosing to do the right thing.

 

 

"Preserve what was great about American rock climbing"?

 

Please tell me what is great about American rock climbing? The lack of bolts? How subjective.

[denalidave]

Where's Drew to claim the pagetop? Maybe he's smarter than the rest of us and is out climbing instead of yammering senseless things online.

 

Since Dawg seems to be avoiding discussing my response to his post, I'm left reflecting if it might be time to post a few more Lil Dawg pics? Of course the answer is self-evident to all:-)

 

 

 

What Feck says about the ivy is true. Bolts are a total NO-event and NO-issue and not just in relation to these other things. Once the Ivy starts hitting some of the established Doug Fir Forests the debate will be radically shifting from a few inert, non-threatening, no-issue in fact environmentally friendly bolts to discuss invasive Zebra Mussels and English Ivy costing us millions and millions of dollars.

 

Regards to all

Bill

 

Oh, for Dawg: His namesake at work.

1/2-13 x 6-1/4 Stainless Steel ICC rated Wedge Anchor.

Torquing to 50 foot lbs.

Voila!

Go Lil Dawg, go...

[pope]

In honor of Johnny (he liked it when I called him that, that was just between us friends) I declare the new purest ethic is if you fall while leading, the only fair means of ascent is free solo, or else you're Richard Simmons.

 

Prior to this post and the one you made immediately after, I thought you were just a harmless, fun guy with a big mouth. Now I think you're either ignorant or a real prick. Whether Bachar intended it (and I assume he did), the statement made by his solo of Father Figure, as interpreted by most, was that the traditional approach to climbing is superior. One could climb hard numbers, in more control and with greater safety by investing the time to learn the ground-up approach. Bachar was well beyond his prime at this point and yet he made child's play out of Cosgrove's route, making every move static. This was a demonstration of excellence, an inspiration and example of what's possible when climbers are willing to focus their efforts instead of taking the most expedient, most convenient way, wilderness be damned. The route, BTW, is short and includes maybe only four bolts. Would have made for an excellent top-rope climb and provided enjoyment equal to what the sport version offers.

 

I was certainly amazed by Bachar's solo ascents. Who wasn't? More impressive to me is that he resisted rap bolting and sport climbing, in an attempt to preserve what was great about American rock climbing and avoid the eventual and predictable grid bolting we see today. In retrospect, he sacrificed his professional career by choosing to do the right thing.

 

blahblahblahblah

 

Aren't you the little pud puller who muffed the Father Figure account just a couple of pages back? Go smoke another joint and get your facts straight.

[StevenSeagal]

In honor of Johnny (he liked it when I called him that, that was just between us friends) I declare the new purest ethic is if you fall while leading, the only fair means of ascent is free solo, or else you're Richard Simmons.

 

Prior to this post and the one you made immediately after, I thought you were just a harmless, fun guy with a big mouth. Now I think you're either ignorant or a real prick. Whether Bachar intended it (and I assume he did), the statement made by his solo of Father Figure, as interpreted by most, was that the traditional approach to climbing is superior. One could climb hard numbers, in more control and with greater safety by investing the time to learn the ground-up approach. Bachar was well beyond his prime at this point and yet he made child's play out of Cosgrove's route, making every move static. This was a demonstration of excellence, an inspiration and example of what's possible when climbers are willing to focus their efforts instead of taking the most expedient, most convenient way, wilderness be damned. The route, BTW, is short and includes maybe only four bolts. Would have made for an excellent top-rope climb and provided enjoyment equal to what the sport version offers.

 

I was certainly amazed by Bachar's solo ascents. Who wasn't? More impressive to me is that he resisted rap bolting and sport climbing, in an attempt to preserve what was great about American rock climbing and avoid the eventual and predictable grid bolting we see today. In retrospect, he sacrificed his professional career by choosing to do the right thing.

 

You know, Pope, not only have I always had complete respect for John Bachar's skills, boldness, and vision, but the truth outside of this filthy sandbox that we are all playing around in here is that I happen to agree with everything you just wrote.

 

In case you didn't notice- in fact you didn't- my post had nothing whatsoever to do with Bachar and everything to do with poking you and Raindawg in the eye just to see if I could produce an emotional response. Like Pavlov's dog, looks like it worked again.

 

So in short I guess this answers your question- I'm a real prick.

[Raindawg]

Go Lil Dawg, go...

 

Ride the bandwagon, "denalidave".

Take the low road.

I've added you to the list....done with you.

(Congratulations for being in the midst of "distinguished company".

And look what you've won!:

 

 

 

 

[Raindawg]

Since Dawg seems to be avoiding discussing my response to his post, I'm left reflecting if it might be time to post a few more Lil Dawg pics? Of course the answer is self-evident to all:-)

 

Dude...you're very needy. Do you really think that responding to your antagonistic posts is my priority? Sorry, I'm working.

And on top of that, half of the time you act like you want to be my pal and the other half you're pissing on me. (or more like 1/3rd, 2/3rd's).

I ain't got time for the drama and I'm not interesting in playing "the game".

So, contact me some other time if you want to be nice.

 

aloha,

 

- don

 

an' a li'l somethin' for you!:

 

 

[Frenchy]

Just look at that shit! ....The colors!!

[StevenSeagal]

At the rate we're going Raindawg will soon be done with everyone on this site.

[StevenSeagal]

Just look at that shit! ....The colors!!

 

Did you decide to stick with Richard, or are you still in detention?

[denalidave]

Go Lil Dawg, go...

 

Ride the bandwagon, "denalidave".

Take the low road.

I've added you to the list....done with you.

(Congratulations for being in the midst of "distinguished company".

And look what you've won!:

 

 

 

Ah, shucks Dawg, I did not know you cared so much. My 6 year old will be thrilled, she loves Care Bears. You go on and sit on your high horse, knowing you are so much better than the rest of us. At least you will be right in your own mind. I've only me a few bolts I did not like, and I even clipped some of them. There is a time a place for everything, including a bolt here and there. Just like anything else in life, moderation is the key. Grid bolting is ok in some areas, bad in others. To each his own, too... Did Bacher ever clip a single bolt? Or even install one or more? If so, does that negate his free solo achievements?

 

At least if I take the low road, I'll be in Scotland A-for ya!

[StevenSeagal]

I post under my real name; first climb was middle sister (central oregon) @ 14. First rock climb was a top rope at Skinner's Butte in Eugene with some guys from the gear shop I somehow lied my way into employment with @ 15. I turned 30 last December.

 

I've clipped 1000s of bolts since I started climbing... mostly at crags. I cant think of any bolts in WA/OR I’ve clipped that were in the mountains but I have clipped a few in Idaho that were on mountain routes. Their presence didn’t bother me and if they weren’t there I don’t know if I would have finished the route. I don’t know how they were placed and given that it was maybe one or two per route any ways it didn’t bother me.

 

I've place a number of top rope bolts locally (around Portland); I own a power drill that I purchased years ago when I had more disposable income (i.e. was single); it mostly collects dust these days. Never placed a bolt in the mountains. I carried a drill into gunsight 2 times (the long way) with the intent of replacing the bolt on Jim's route but both times was shut down by weather. When I finally managed to climb the route I never saw the bolt but still managed to top out.

 

I dont have a problem with bolts at crags as long as it is done responsible... dont bolt cracks, dont squeeze routes in next to each other and you should never have bolts so close together that one could potentially z clip.

 

That said sport climbing is a fundamental part of how I train for alpine climbing (the type of climbing that interests me the most). Yes one can still be an amazing alpine climber without clipping bolts ever but it takes a lot more time… something I don’t have much of. So I clip bolts… but I also trad climb, solo easy routes, dry tool choss, “ice climb” trees and lift weights occasionally It’s what works for me given how much time I have to devote to climbing. Bottom line: bolts have helped make me be a better than the climber I would be if I never ever clipped them.

 

My biggest concern WRT to bolts is bolts in the mountains. If it was up to me I’d like to see them minimized. I’m okay with bolts protecting something that would make it X rated without but only as a last resort. Bolted mountain routes I hope to do sometime soon include Salish Peak and Infinite Bliss; the first one because it looks rad (I’ve walked under it) and the second because climbers I respect and value their opinion told me it was fun… the exact reason I climb! For fun!

 

That’s where I stand. I challenge each of you to do the same.

 

PS: and I think we as PNW climbers have much much bigger things to worry about than bolts

 

"Hi, the name's John, and I'm a hot-shit climber when Dave Burdick is dragging me up a helichopper-accessed rock in Alaska. You wanna know what I think? I'll betcha do, since I'm a celebrity. Well, sport climbing made me a stud and it will work for you too. In fact, there's no other way to get strong, so we need lots of bolts my friends. But I don't like 'em in the mountains unless I happen to be mixed climbin' a modern despo."

 

 

At times, Pope, it seems that you're sincerely interested in getting people to understand and embrace your point of view on these subjects. But then, below the belt posts like the above made in response to a solid guy trying to offer a mature point for discussion absolutely kill your credibility.

 

But hey, I'm a real prick, so off I go!

 

[pope]

I post under my real name; first climb was middle sister (central oregon) @ 14. First rock climb was a top rope at Skinner's Butte in Eugene with some guys from the gear shop I somehow lied my way into employment with @ 15. I turned 30 last December.

 

I've clipped 1000s of bolts since I started climbing... mostly at crags. I cant think of any bolts in WA/OR I’ve clipped that were in the mountains but I have clipped a few in Idaho that were on mountain routes. Their presence didn’t bother me and if they weren’t there I don’t know if I would have finished the route. I don’t know how they were placed and given that it was maybe one or two per route any ways it didn’t bother me.

 

I've place a number of top rope bolts locally (around Portland); I own a power drill that I purchased years ago when I had more disposable income (i.e. was single); it mostly collects dust these days. Never placed a bolt in the mountains. I carried a drill into gunsight 2 times (the long way) with the intent of replacing the bolt on Jim's route but both times was shut down by weather. When I finally managed to climb the route I never saw the bolt but still managed to top out.

 

I dont have a problem with bolts at crags as long as it is done responsible... dont bolt cracks, dont squeeze routes in next to each other and you should never have bolts so close together that one could potentially z clip.

 

That said sport climbing is a fundamental part of how I train for alpine climbing (the type of climbing that interests me the most). Yes one can still be an amazing alpine climber without clipping bolts ever but it takes a lot more time… something I don’t have much of. So I clip bolts… but I also trad climb, solo easy routes, dry tool choss, “ice climb” trees and lift weights occasionally It’s what works for me given how much time I have to devote to climbing. Bottom line: bolts have helped make me be a better than the climber I would be if I never ever clipped them.

 

My biggest concern WRT to bolts is bolts in the mountains. If it was up to me I’d like to see them minimized. I’m okay with bolts protecting something that would make it X rated without but only as a last resort. Bolted mountain routes I hope to do sometime soon include Salish Peak and Infinite Bliss; the first one because it looks rad (I’ve walked under it) and the second because climbers I respect and value their opinion told me it was fun… the exact reason I climb! For fun!

 

That’s where I stand. I challenge each of you to do the same.

 

PS: and I think we as PNW climbers have much much bigger things to worry about than bolts

 

"Hi, the name's John, and I'm a hot-shit climber when Dave Burdick is dragging me up a helichopper-accessed rock in Alaska. You wanna know what I think? I'll betcha do, since I'm a celebrity. Well, sport climbing made me a stud and it will work for you too. In fact, there's no other way to get strong, so we need lots of bolts my friends. But I don't like 'em in the mountains unless I happen to be mixed climbin' a modern despo."

 

 

At times, Pope, it seems that you're sincerely interested in getting people to understand and embrace your point of view on these subjects. But then, below the belt posts like the above made in response to a solid guy trying to offer a mature point for discussion absolutely kill your credibility.

 

But hey, I'm a real prick, so off I go!

 

I posted that nonsense in order to solicit an emotional response. Guess it worked.

[StevenSeagal]

 

I posted that nonsense in order to solicit an emotional response. Guess it worked.

 

 

Good one.

[Ponderosa]

You've all been together for a sufficient length of time that your moon cycles have synchronized.

[Kimmo]

I remember a time when "raindawg and pope" were not ostracized; when the jabs here were much more friendly and this place wasn't like a high school clique for social regects.

 

This place has turned into a cess pool and I merely come back occasionally to stir the shit and see if anything worth-while fell in the port-o-let.

 

raindawg and pope have been ostracized ever since they turned into old skool fanbois dreamin their lives away.

 

and you were just as busy back then bitchin about this place as you seem to be now.

 

nothing has changed.

[pope]

In honor of Johnny (he liked it when I called him that, that was just between us friends) I declare the new purest ethic is if you fall while leading, the only fair means of ascent is free solo, or else you're Richard Simmons.

 

Prior to this post and the one you made immediately after, I thought you were just a harmless, fun guy with a big mouth. Now I think you're either ignorant or a real prick. Whether Bachar intended it (and I assume he did), the statement made by his solo of Father Figure, as interpreted by most, was that the traditional approach to climbing is superior. One could climb hard numbers, in more control and with greater safety by investing the time to learn the ground-up approach. Bachar was well beyond his prime at this point and yet he made child's play out of Cosgrove's route, making every move static. This was a demonstration of excellence, an inspiration and example of what's possible when climbers are willing to focus their efforts instead of taking the most expedient, most convenient way, wilderness be damned. The route, BTW, is short and includes maybe only four bolts. Would have made for an excellent top-rope climb and provided enjoyment equal to what the sport version offers.

 

I was certainly amazed by Bachar's solo ascents. Who wasn't? More impressive to me is that he resisted rap bolting and sport climbing, in an attempt to preserve what was great about American rock climbing and avoid the eventual and predictable grid bolting we see today. In retrospect, he sacrificed his professional career by choosing to do the right thing.

 

You know, Pope, not only have I always had complete respect for John Bachar's skills, boldness, and vision, but the truth outside of this filthy sandbox that we are all playing around in here is that I happen to agree with everything you just wrote.

 

In case you didn't notice- in fact you didn't- my post had nothing whatsoever to do with Bachar and everything to do with poking you and Raindawg in the eye just to see if I could produce an emotional response. Like Pavlov's dog, looks like it worked again.

 

So in short I guess this answers your question- I'm a real prick.

 

Here are the Sea Gal posts which "had nothing to do with Bachar":

 

"In honor of Johnny (he liked it when I called him that, that was just between us friends) I declare the new purest ethic is if you fall while leading, the only fair means of ascent is free solo, or else you're Richard Simmons."

 

"Better to die than weight the rope, everyone. Best tell your loved ones to prepare to celebrate your imminent martyrdom."

 

 

Again, you're either ignorant or you're a prick. Probably 50/50 of each. At any rate, evidence mounts to support the idea that you aren't qualified to comment on Bachar, bolting ethics, or much of anything for that matter. You're more than qualified to run your fat mouth, placing you properly in the company of KK, Kevbone, ElJefe, TrashCan, and that miserable SOB who calls himself ChodaBoy. I'm ready to assign Kimmo to your squad but he deserves 1/2 a chance to demonstrate that I've misjudged him.

[StevenSeagal]

I remember a time when "raindawg and pope" were not ostracized; when the jabs here were much more friendly and this place wasn't like a high school clique for social regects.

 

This place has turned into a cess pool and I merely come back occasionally to stir the shit and see if anything worth-while fell in the port-o-let.

 

Oh you mean back when all the crew that ended up over at ass.com used to threaten to hunt down and beat the crap out of people on here?

 

 

Those were the days, alright!

[Kimmo]

Prior to this post and the one you made immediately after, I thought you were just a harmless, fun guy with a big mouth. Now I think you're either ignorant or a real prick. Whether Bachar intended it (and I assume he did), the statement made by his solo of Father Figure, as interpreted by most, was that the traditional approach to climbing is superior. One could climb hard numbers, in more control and with greater safety by investing the time to learn the ground-up approach. Bachar was well beyond his prime at this point and yet he made child's play out of Cosgrove's route, making every move static. This was a demonstration of excellence, an inspiration and example of what's possible when climbers are willing to focus their efforts instead of taking the most expedient, most convenient way, wilderness be damned. The route, BTW, is short and includes maybe only four bolts. Would have made for an excellent top-rope climb and provided enjoyment equal to what the sport version offers.

 

I was certainly amazed by Bachar's solo ascents. Who wasn't? More impressive to me is that he resisted rap bolting and sport climbing, in an attempt to preserve what was great about American rock climbing and avoid the eventual and predictable grid bolting we see today. In retrospect, he sacrificed his professional career by choosing to do the right thing.

 

hey fanboi, you are an ignorant fool who lives in a fantasy world. get a life already, seriously.

 

who gives a flying fuck what bachar did or any fucker did with climbing? do your own damn thing and enjoy it, instead of speculating about other climbers and their motivations. for all i know, bachar was an arrogant prick back in his heyday, only concerned about one-up-manship and the like; it seems like he changed, but i really don't give a damn (about him as a climber; him as a father and a human being: that's a different story).

 

go ahead and live in 1972 or 1690 or whatever fuck year you worship, but quite honestly i'm tired of hearing about your uphill walks to school through snow in both directions.

[Kimmo]

I'm ready to assign Kimmo to your squad but he deserves 1/2 a chance to demonstrate that I've misjudged him.

 

you have a wayyyyy over-blown sense of self-importance, fanboi.

[StevenSeagal]

 

Here are the Sea Gal posts which "had nothing to do with Bachar":

 

"In honor of Johnny (he liked it when I called him that, that was just between us friends) I declare the new purest ethic is if you fall while leading, the only fair means of ascent is free solo, or else you're Richard Simmons."

 

"Better to die than weight the rope, everyone. Best tell your loved ones to prepare to celebrate your imminent martyrdom."

 

 

Again, you're either ignorant or you're a prick. Probably 50/50 of each. At any rate, evidence mounts to support the idea that you aren't qualified to comment on Bachar, bolting ethics, or much of anything for that matter. You're more than qualified to run your fat mouth, placing you properly in the company of KK, Kevbone, ElJefe, TrashCan, and that miserable SOB who calls himself ChodaBoy. I'm ready to assign Kimmo to your squad but he deserves 1/2 a chance to demonstrate that I've misjudged him.

 

Pope, YOU are the one who brought Bachar into the discussion by posting his photo and asking "What would Johnny do?", in a manner-combined with all your past righteous diatribes- that suggests we maybe ought to be thinking, "whoa, Pope must have known him and might even be in the same league, we better listen to him!". Since you didn't get the joke- are you now carrying Bachar's torch for all of us, pope? I bet your just the guy to do it. If so, based on the tone of Bachar's posts that he made on Supertopo, all you need now is some tact, humility, and a good attitude (and no I've never met him or conversed with him). Good luck with that.

 

I'm as amazed as you are by that mans' exploits, but your pretentious trotting out of him especially in the wake of his death was rather...interesting for lack of a better word.

 

What, please tell, "qualifies" me to comment on this topic? Do I have to be climbing at a top level? A free soloist? Have soloed Brass Balls? Even Bachar, as talented as he was, was one man with one view, his being no more valid than the next guy. The fact that he was bold and talented beyond what most of us could hope for only proves he could walk his own walk. And for that he deserves respect. I'm pretty sure however that he didn't spend his time insulting others on message boards and turning his opinion into an intractable religion, which is not to say he didn't take his values seriously.

 

So I'm left to discern that I'm not "qualified" in your eyes to comment on this topic simply because my view differs on the matter, although as I've stated, I actually agree to a point with some of your position. But you two are about as reasonable to debate as a street corner preacher, therefore the urge to fling poo in this thread is the next best thing.

 

Carry on- not that I need to tell you to.