Aztar mods?

[John Frieh]

No upper hand position on quark = more swings per pitch.

 

Being able to bump to the upper hand rest position on cobra = higher placement of the feet before next swing = less swings per pitch = less pump

 

titan picks

[jordansahls]

It’s really great to get so much input from the old school crowd. I'm at a bit of a cross road. Should I get a pair of better tools, or should I mod the ones I have now? I feel like there is a point when a climber gets strong enough that tool choice really may have an effect on his climbing ability, and then there is the climber who has yet to reach that level. I think I’m more in the second category. General mental toughness and skill are more likely to benefit my climbing then a pair of nice tools. That said, there is an advantage into playing with all the options available. I hate the idea of limiting myself by refusing to explore the other options out there.

 

Still, I have yet to explore leashless climbing, so it would be a new thing for me to mod my aztars and climb on them for a few seasons.

 

I think back to the old school climbers and the routes they did with 8lb ice hammers with wooden handles and realize that tools, while important, wont substitute for grit, and general toughness in the outdoors.

 

So what do you older folks think? Did you notice an improvement when switching to something like the quarks or Nomics, how has it effected your climbing to date?

 

[kevino]

I'm not older but I went through the exact situation. My first pair of tools were the Aztars. Great for alpine, ok/pretty good for ice - but I found somewhat inversely related to the steepness. I then purchased the BD Reactors (got a good deal) to try out the leashless realm. I loved it! But the more I climbed with the reacters the less happy I was with them (not to mention bent picks, etc). So for this past winter/spring I sold off both pairs of tools and got me a pair of quarks. Amazing! I threw some grip tape on them and they are great. Plunging not a problem. Great for steep ice, moderate ice, alpine ice, moderate mixed etc. I spent 22+ days on ice this season, ranging from single pitch ice to alpine climbs. Best all around tool I've used to date.

 

That said, I've also used the vipers and nomics. Vipers are pretty good, but I felt more solid with the quarks. Nomics were awesome, but I didn't find them practical to be my only pair (to each their own).

 

Check out my or davidk's TR's to see where my tools have been this year (Canada, Montana, Washington...)

 

I guess I didn't address the ability change...I felt I climbed better with the quarks than with the atzars or reactors. I also liked the addition of grip tape. Curious about how it would climb with the 2nd hand rest grivel trigger that Dane added...

Edited June 9, 2009 by kevino

[jordansahls]

when you talk about the second grip rest, your talking about something similar to this picture:

 

[kevino]

Yeah, I'd never thought of adding one till I saw Dane post this little creation of his. High enough you can fit one hand underneath. Its essentially what John was referring to in order to avoid more swinging. I haven't tried it yet...may try it next season for ice cragging, but not on alpine.

 

 

 

[Dane]

I think back to the old school climbers and the routes they did with 8lb ice hammers with wooden handles and realize that tools, while important, wont substitute for grit, and general toughness in the outdoors.

 

 

Having climbed a long time with those wooden handled antiques...just a heads up....the best tools/gear/clothing out there now ARE a good substitute for old school grit, general toughness and technique. The grades continue to climb.

 

Here is 40 years of direct linage in ice tools...

 

 

more here.

http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/876266/1

 

There are others here that can add more to the discussion. Hopefully they will. But since you brought it up I'll continue.

 

Curved tools (Chouinard) allowed some pretty serious/steep ice climbing to be done. Generally by exceptionally fit and experienced and most of all BOLD climbers. Ice screws were slow in following the ability of the tools so ice climbs were generally ran out.

 

Hooking tools, the first McInnes' Terrodacty, made extreme ice and mixed climbing possible.

 

Within the last 10 years the newest ice screws/hooks/screamers have caught up with the tools. Ice climbing can now be quickly and safely protected.

 

But I can tell you from personal experience Grade 6 ice now is a lot easier...and I do mean a LOT and a great deal safer now than it was with even the past generation's tools and gear.

 

More to the point and the subject at hand.

 

Four different kinds of ice tools these days.

 

#1 Shaft with no support needs a leash

 

#2 Shaft with some support and needs a leash

 

#3 Shaft with support and doesn't require a leash

 

#4 shaft, grip/grips are ergonomically designed to support the climber leashless but may be limiting on easier ground.

 

#3 will generally have a high clearence shaft and be specifically designed to climb leashless on. While maybe not very noticable on moderate terrain #3 will make hard technical climbing much easier physically. #4 even more so. #1 and #2 can not be easily modified to offer the support of #3 and #3 can not be easily modifided to offer the support #4.

 

Second grip? I never thought the 2nd grip would be something I would use till I was forced to by difficult climbing while on Nomics. Now I would prefer not to climb with out a 2nd grip.

 

One of my complaints on the BD Cobra was the second grip was designed to be used as a trigger or a upper grip. That (not being big enough imo for the upper grip support) and it's limited placement on the shaft made it worthless for my own use. One of the reasons I sold my Cobras. Others, climbing harder than me, obviously like the Cobra and like the design.

 

 

 

 

 

[kevino]

Dane,

 

Have you used that set up, on the above pictured quark, outside much? If so, did it work well as a second hand rest/matching thingy?

[Dane]

Hey Kevin, no I haven't used it outside. I may get a chance to shortly if it happens I'll get back to you on that. Added the 2nd grip to my Quarks two winter's ago but never ended up using them again after I got the Nomics.

 

Sold my Cobras and wanted to have a grip/trigger with a higher position than the Cobra allowed, was the original idea.

 

May be John will describe what he is doing and how he is using the Cobra grip.

 

But this is what surprised me and how I am using the second grip on the Nomic and how I intend to use the added grip on the Quark. Only wish I had more surface area on the 2nd, bolt on grip for my Quarks.

 

I use the second grip and get my feet higher as John described. I also use the second grip and swing from there like using a shorter tool. Works good on moderate ground as a "dagger" that way and on difficult stuff to get your feet higher as a second grip.

 

The use that surprised me on difficult ice was matching on the second grip and hanging my other tool on a body holster and pulling up with both hands on one tool. It is a technique I ended up using a lot on the Nomics. With my now weenie arms it saved me an incredible amount of energy on hard climbs by eliminationg numerious tool placements.

 

I think grip matching and 2nd grip use is as revolutionary as A frame ice climbing was over X frame and may even more so in the amount of energy saved. Obviously you have to climb leashless to use either technique, matching or high grip, to its fullest.

 

An after thought:

 

With all the new gear and techniques everyone wonders what kind of gear to start with or stay with and get better on. Beginners and old hands...everyone wonders. Good climbers can climb on anything...most any old club with a nail through it can get you up some ice. But some gear, used wisely, can make you a better climber. All it takes is money

 

Last winter I saw students who had never climbed before TRing on M5/M6 and vertical ice. After a full week of nothing but ice and mixed the first choice of tools for those students was the Nomic. And they had the choice of ALL the modern tools at the school they were attending.

 

Again not beating the Petzl or Nomic drum here...just saying the design ideas behind the Nomic are stellar and there will be more to come by all the major manufactures. I don't think the Quark, Nomic or BD Cobra or Fusion are the end all in tool design. It is obvious more can easily be done.

[montypiton]

one more objection to the one-hand-leashed-and-one-leashless described in the original post: I place the screw with whichever hand is more convenient/efficient for each position/placement. I'd have a hard time limiting myself to making every placement with the same hand... different strokes, though - use what works best for you

 

also, I'd agree with Dane that the new tools DO make a helluva difference. back in the eighties, grade 6 ice was terrifying even following, and I never led at that level, but now, in my old age, I'm running laps on climbs at that standard - and I know I'm not nearly as strong as I was then...

[Marko]

To be clear, I absolutely agree with you MP on the steep stuff where you're hanging off your tools and/or where the terrain dictates which hand places the gear. But,

"Hybrid" leashed/leashless system: Still prefer it on easy/moderate stuff in the hills. Not as much on the steep stuff where you're sort of locked in to hanging off the same wrist at every screw placement.

The mountain routes I'm on aren't that continuously steep or hard. Also, I use a quick-clip type leash to make it easier to place gear with that hand.

[stever]

Bringing up the dead

Lots of good info here

 

Anyone have extended experience with the (now discontinued) Grivel Taa-k-oon? How are they in the alpine? I know they work well on vertical and mixed climbs.

 

 

[Rafael_H]

No upper hand position on quark = more swings per pitch.

 

Being able to bump to the upper hand rest position on cobra = higher placement of the feet before next swing = less swings per pitch = less pump

 

titan picks

 

Excellent note! I finally came to this same realization all on my own in 2007-2008 (I am sure it is written and talked about online/in books but I've had no time, so am a bit late, I guess). And so... I took the second rest off of my Quarks.

 

I put the second rest on back in 2003-2004 season for hand matching reasons, and to start loosing the leash comletely. I stopped using the leash as aid back in 2000 at insistence of my mentor and lengthened it so it was just a safety implement. So the leash was becoming more and more of a nuisance, and just a phsycological aid. With the new BD leashes hand matching was much easier. At the same time I also completely wrapped my Quarks with good grip tape to prevent from dings.

 

What I noticed was that using the second rest for hand matching was not that easy because often times there was little space between the tool at that spot and the ice. On a very high stick I'd be struggling to wiggle my fingers in all the while loosing energy, or I'd be just grabbing the tool's sticky surface with leather gloves anywhere on the shaft. And for bumping I was most often grabbing it definitely above the secondary rest. Note that the rest is only fully useful when you grab the tool as you would a handgun. And yes, the Grivel rest is a bit too small/uncomfortable. So I took the rests off and... also bought Nomics. Obviously just about anything has its pros and cons. Let's see what happens this year.

 

[Dhamma]

id love to see pics of aztar mods. was thinking about this with my aztars

[Jordan]

Anyone had a chance to play with the new Sum'tec yet? I like the idea of the easily adjustable rest. Seems like a good hybrid tool, minus the fat pick..

[wdietsch]

I've played with it a couple of times in the store ... nice idea .. however I didn't like how, when slid all the way down the shaft toward the spike, the clamp lever ends up in the palm of your hand .. the lever is fairly large and adds significantly to the volume of the shaft in you hand.

 

It will clamp in both direction (up or down) but flipping it down and away from your palm means sliding it up away from the spike a bit .. it would work great in "low dagger"