Aztar mods?

[jordansahls]

Yes its rock season, I am well aware, but I pulled my back out and I have some free time so here it goes.

 

Does anyone have any experience with modifying the Griprest attachment for the Quark to work with the Aztar model ice tool? I was lucky enough to climb Pan Dome falls when Alan Kearney was in the area. He used a system where his non-dominate hand was leashed, and his dominate, gear placing hand, was leashless. It was a cool set up. Anyway, I'm looking to do something like that with my Aztars. Thoughts?

[Dane]

The Quark grip rest can be made to fit many different tools. I use one, cut down, as a flipable rest on my Grivel Evo tools.

 

Buy 3 and use the first one to figure it out incase you have to cut it up.

 

With all respect to Alan but why would anyone want a half leashed, half leashless tool set up. Seems a BIG step back ward IMO.

 

I think you'd be better served with a complete set of leashless.

[jordansahls]

Thanks for the Info! I'm not sure why he had that particular set up, but watching him was a trip. He basically used his leashless hand to place screws, and he did it faster than anyone I have seen before. I wasn't keeping time, but it couldn't have taken him more than 15 or 20 second per screw.

 

If I see him ice climbing again, I will ask him about his set up.

Edited June 4, 2009 by jordansahls

[John Frieh]

Discussion of leashed/leashless set up here

 

I'm guessing Alan was able to place screws fast because he's had a little more practice than most of us on this board... not his setup.

 

Without a griprest a leash makes sense but for me personally I really like going leashless

[cbcbd]

I met a guy in Canmore who had done just that - put the Quark rest on his Aztars.

Basically what he told me is that you can just simply screw the rest onto the Aztar, but the problem is that the spike hole is too big so the screw holding the rest moves around in there, pinballing around and not keeping the rest in place.

What he did was to get a piece of similar thickness (of the spike) aluminum and cut it to fill the spike gap. He then drilled a hole in the aluminum for the rest's screw and that was it - the aluminum plate eliminated that play and kept the griprest snug against the tool and in place.

[jordansahls]

For sure, Alan's screw placement proficiency wasn't from his set-up, But you could tell that it worked well for him. Also, I'm not sure if he does this all the time, or only for short ice climbs. Either way, that guy is fun to watch.

 

Thanks for all the input, it seems fairly strait forward but its always nice to hear from others about their experiences.

[Dane]

I don't think anyone is questioning Alan's abilities, certainly not me.

 

I think most of us are saying that you (anyone?) would be better served with adding a grip rest to both of your Aztars and climbing totally leashless. Umbilicals are another question. But they seem to have become the norm for hard alpine.

 

The newest screws are incredibly fast to place FWIW.

 

From the link John provided..dated 2/02/2007

 

Something I tried for the second time, and am now totally sold on for alpine climbing, is going leashed on the adze tool and leashless with a tether on the hammer. This allows for no pinky rest on the adze for good plunging, and quick dexterity and gear access on the dominant hand.

 

Be interesting to hear what Marko is using now?

[pms]

I've talked with a couple folks who've used and liked Alan's method.

[jordansahls]

I would be worried about the ability of the tool to plunge. It seems like Marko's post talks about that nicely. I would also be interested to hear how this meathod has been working/evolving for those who use it.

 

For those of you that do use leashless tools in the alpine (or teathered tools), how does the pinky rest effect the tools ability to plunge? I would think that it would be a problem, but I have always used leashes, that and most of the alpine routes I have been on that required my tools were cold enough that plunging wasnt really an issue.

[pms]

I think it's one of the reasons some like the hybrid system for some climbs. one tool set up to plunge well (no hand rest) used with simple wrist leash, and one tool leashless (or with tether) with hand rest.

[rhyang]

I bolted a grivel slider on an aztar just out of curiosity a couple years ago -

 

 

Haven't tried actually climbing on it though

[Dane]

I've used Quarks with the grip rest a lot and Nomics some over the last few winters. As you might imagine the Quarks plunge better than the Nomics But either work well enough.

 

Even in places you might not imagine they would.

 

Have to admit if I really want a plunging tool for a particular climb (can't imagine what that climb would be these days) I prefer a fairly straight shafted axe. But seldom do I set one aside for a climb now.

 

But this thing plunges about as good as anything out there. But then most anything will these days! By the time the grip rest becomes a hinderence to inserting the shaft there is generally enough stability in the snow pack to hold a pick.

 

 

There was a time when I thought these would be terrible for plunging. Then Twight and crew used them on the Solvak route on Denali. Had my brain pried open to rethink alpine tools from that climb.

 

Then you start seeing Nomics on all sorts of terrain where a hammer/adze and a tool that plunges would seem to be required but really isn't. Funny what you will do (or give up) to use a tool that climbs well. I don't find umbilicals a big issue plunging...if I did (haven't yet) I'd just unclip from the bottom of the axe.

 

 

 

Nomics on 50 degee snow

 

Shooting Gallery, Andromeda, Canada

Jon Walsh's photos of Caroline George.

 

North Gully, Mt. Hunter, AK

 

http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2009/05/mt-hunter.html

 

 

[jordansahls]

Dane, how do you feel about climbing without a hammer and an adze? Cool pics, by the way.

[Dane]

Hammer/Adze? Still undecided and route specific. I have been pushing the conditions where I would normally demand a decent plunging tool and a hammer and adze. The 50 degree snow was a good example above. Soloed Shooting Gallery in snowed up conditions where a good plunging tool would have been awesome...but Quark worked just fine...better than expected actually. Found last winter that while I thought all three would be needed....none really were. Never would have believed it if someone had told me. Had to find out for myself and it was/is still quite a surprise.

 

Going to try that trick again next week on something taking only Nomics (and trekking poles) seems silly on. I'll let you know how it turns out.

 

Not the answer for everyone but I am continually shocked at where I see people climbing with a only Nomics. Those climbers and their climbs have encouraged me to push myself on tool selection.

 

Good example, I have been unsuccessful on the north butt of Hunter twice. Until recently I would have never thought of only taking Nomics up there. Here is a guy (Colin's buddy) who actually climbed the buttress TWICE with only Nomics (umbilicals attached). So I guess an easy plunging tool wasn't really required Althought they lead in blocks still worth noting Colin was using a set of BD Cobras which will still do all three...plunge, hammer and adze. But for half that climbing and the decent...the three, P/H/A, weren't required

 

Not the best illustrations may be but all places I bet you could normally use a plunged shaft but Nomics worked just fine.

 

Steck on the McIntyre/Colton with conditions that might be a little hard for plunging a short tool. But the grip position he is using is the one I generally use now on my high clearence tools when I might well be plunging with a straight tool. And I generally find it MORE secure and a LOT less effort than a plunged tool.

 

 

Pineapple Express '09...Neve can be a a toss up...pick or shaft.

 

 

From Colin's blog again, ..obviously some snow here.

 

Don't get me wrong though, Nomics (or Cobras among others) are good tools but I would rather have a tool that climbs as well as a Nomic (most don't) but is easy and secure to plunge with a "useful" hammer and adze as options.

[montypiton]

I've modified several pairs of tools, including aztars, cutting down wire-rope thimbles to a "J" shape and clamping them to the grips with hose-clamps. its cheap, quick, easy to adjust -- only downside is its metal, so cold (usually not a problem here in WA). I usually install a pinky support and a trigger-finger support on each tool. I have several partners (Tom Heinz, Andy Barber, John Tarver) who've carved trigger/pinky supports out of plastic cutting boards and bolted them to the tools, with excellent results. I've never found plunging to be an issue. If the surface is too soft for picks to hold, the supports don't present enough resistance to interfere. If the surface is too low angle for picks, but hard, that's what the spike at the bottom of the grip is for. I haven't used leashes, or an adze (hell, I almost never used an adze anyway, even when I used to carry one) since the late nineties, however I did (after dropping a tool a few times)revert to using umbilicals on any climb longer than a single pitch.

my current favorite tool is the DMM rebel: light, decent swing, great clearance, three grip supports (pinky, trigger, matching), and spike for plunging. Having found a tool I don't need to modify, of course I bought them.

[jordansahls]

Wow, lots of good info comming in. Thanks for the break down Dane, definatly making me think harder about this.

 

 

[Dane]

Lots of info here but really five different topics I think.

 

1st is leash, leashless or a combo of the two

 

2nd is modified tools or buying a tool specifically designed for leashless. On high clearence tools I use the bottom grip support, and a mid shaft support for the bottom of my grip. I also like a fully insulated shaft. I don't use a "trigger support" for my index finger. From the little I tried seemed like it would be too easy to cause a serious tendon injury doing so.

 

3rd is how/or do you use umbilicals

 

4th is the ability of high clearence and leashless tools to plunge

 

5th was until recently, the accepted requirement of hammer and adze.

 

My requirements fwiw? First and formost pick reliability, next leashless support, then the ability to plunge and a easily used umbilical attachment point. Tool weight has became an issue once I started to figure out just how light a tool could be and still climb well.

 

A final thought on tools. If you don't have the additional support you require, any of the more modern tools that are specifically designed to offer additional hand support might be a better investment in time and your climbing than modifing your current tools. (to get the right support is it shaft angle and grip design combined) Also I think you'll find that the best of the "supported" tools will eliminate the need of leashes a lot faster than you might first think.

 

My experience with Petzl tools since '02.

I need leashes on a Quark without the grip support. I easily switched to leashless with the grip rest installed on the Quark. I then found out just how easy leashless climbing really can be on the next generation of tools..the Nomic.

 

The more you look at the details in current tool design the more obvious it becomes that we can still go much further in design and application. Which is pretty amazing and very exciting!

 

[John Frieh]

Nomics are great I have a pair but with that said if you could only own one pair of tools (like most people on this board) and/or this is your first pair of tools IMO owning a pair that lack hammers is going to seriously limit what you can and cant climb.

[montypiton]

Dane - interesting point about the trigger-finger support. The possibility of injuring the tendon of that finger hasn't really bothered me, because I don't really use the support for hanging -- rather it works for me as "power steering" - makes my swing a lot more accurate, especially when I'm tired. Not everyone needs as much help as I do...

[Dane]

Hammers are easy to come by

 

 

"owning a pair that lack hammers is going to seriously limit what you can and can't climb."

 

A hammer is only required if you are placing and removing rock pins. How many novice ice climbers are doing that? Unlike a generation ago, modern ice screws obviously don't require the use of a hammer to place. I like an adze as well, but do I really need one? Not generally.

 

Trigger? I tried them and found that correct placement on the shaft limited how I used the tool as a hammer when swinging in reverse grip. A well placed trigger for me was where I wanted my hand in the reverse hammer grip. Then I actually used a trigger on some hard ice and realised just how mch strain I was adding to my finger when pulling hard moves. Some info on tendon tears from using them out there as well. Then I decided I didn't really need a hammer!

 

I did however find that a second grip on the tool was a huge benefit for matching and leashless. Choosing between a trigger and a second grip then became easy.

 

I am not advocating the purchase of Nomics...althought they are seen in as many Canadian beginner's hands these days as the local hard men. Joke in Canada now is "Nomics are cheaters" and using them lowers the ice grade a full number. Nomic has 3 limitations...lack of hammer/adze and limited use plunging.

 

But those "serious limitations" didn't keep Nomics off the North Butt of Hunter this spring or the North Face of the Droites and almost every water fall and mixed climb in Canada and Europe last winter If nothing else the Nomic is opening our imaginations.

[Marko]

Nomics: I've been hearing folks rave about 'em for a while now; are they really that much better for ice and mixed than even Quarks?

 

No adze: On snowed/iced up climbs I seem to often end up digging for gear; it sucks even worse without an adze. Real climbers just run it out?

 

Plunging: Agree that it's usually better to just dagger.

 

"Hybrid" leashed/leashless system: Still prefer it on easy/moderate stuff in the hills. Not as much on the steep stuff where you're sort of locked in to hanging off the same wrist at every screw placement.

[Dane]

Mark glad you joined in.

 

"Nomics: I've been hearing folks rave about 'em for a while now; are they really that much better for ice and mixed than even Quarks?"

 

I have both and offer this..Nomics are enough better than the Quark for difficult ground that it is easy to forgive them not having hammer/adze or the ability to plunge.

[Marko]

Crap, that's what I was afraid of. Sounds like I might be donating to the Jim Nelson retirement fund again this year! (My pleasure, to be honest.)

[Doug Shepherd]

I climbed on Quarks for 3 years before purchasing a pair of Nomics. I really like the Nomics for steep mixed climbing but honestly feel that the Cobras climb better on hard ice and moderate alpine terrain while still mixed climbing reasonably. I don't quite have the resume that Dane does, but am not exactly slouch on harder ice/mixed climbs either.

 

I always feel like I am swinging a blunt hammer when I climb ice with my Nomics. I still need to try out the thinner picks for more than a couple days, they did seem to help.

 

The big drawback for me of the Cobras is the poor pick life of the Laser picks. I bent a brand new Laser on the first pitch of the Ames Ice Hose in November this past season...I had just put it on that morning! However I've had good luck with the Titan picks for alpine climbing and didn't mess up another Laser pick the rest of the season.

 

All that said, leashless is definitely the way to go. I was on the fence until I lead a couple WI6 pitches without my leashes and realized how nice it was.

[Dane]

Good point Doug. On moderate terrain the Quark is the winner over the Nomic. And Yes, I should have been more specific and mentioned the caveat, use the right pick and head weight where required for the Nomics. Subtle changes to be sure but all can make a big difference on how Nomic climbs.

 

I like the mixed pick with no head weight and use that where there will be little hard ice. I add the weights to the mixed pick if there is going to be lots of hard ice and mixed. For Canadian water ice the more delicate Cascade picks with the additional pick weights are really the sheeeetttz. Wrong pick combo and the Nomic can SUCK...

 

Wasn't trying to make this a Petzl commercial. More trying to point out the opportunity to use our imaginations when it comes to tool choice and what is required. There are LOTS of exceptionally gifted climbers who prefer BD tools. The Cobra is one of the best.