kevbone Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 If you grab a tree or step on a tree is that considered not freeing a route? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 it comes down to context. Â assuming the crags: Â is it contrived to avoid the tree, because they didn't remove it, lest the econazis attack? Â or is the tree out of the way and avoids a natural, harder rock move? Â Many trees are in at squamish. The BoC tree at Index is not in. Â Regarding the alpine -- it's all in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 it comes down to context. assuming the crags:  is it contrived to avoid the tree, because they didn't remove it, lest the econazis attack?  or is the tree out of the way and avoids a natural, harder rock move?  Many trees are in at squamish. The BoC tree at Index is not in.  Regarding the alpine -- it's all in.   Interesting response.  As far at the BOC tree at index....if you can reach it, its on. IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 I did a route in Blodjett that used a rotting tree. Once the tree is gone, the route is going to jump a few grades. And it is right below the best climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 Â Interesting response. Â As far at the BOC tree at index....if you can reach it, its on. IMO. Â I disagree. And in fact, at least one guidebook may expressly prohibit it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 I agree with Gary. For the most part, all vegetative material in the alpine is in. Â Vegetative material at developed cragging areas follows the "Law of the Land" for that particular area. If the predominant ethic for the area says "go for it", then go for it. Conversely, if it's considered "poor form" to pull on plants, then it's out. Â CASES IN POINT: 1) The tree in the middle of Midnight Fright at Lightning Dome is considered "in" simply because it would be extemely difficult to get past it without touching it. Plus, it makes a great piece of pro in an otherwise difficult to protect OW. Ergo, it's in. Â 2) The tree one climbs and slings at Stone Mountain (NC) to access the first bolt on Strawberry Preserves is in, as expressly stated in the guidebook. Failure to utilize this tree would expose one to a serious case of roadrash (hence the name Strawberry Preserves) and a fall past the belay ledge, plus putting your belayer into a FF=2 situation, were you to skid out before the next bolt, some 60-70 feet away on 5.10+ (old skewl) terrain. Because of consequences of failure, the tree is in. From the old Dixie Crystals guidebook: "A very continuous and difficult route with lengthy runouts for extra excitement." Â 3) Shrubbery at New River Gorge, WV (I'm speaking of the Bridge Buttress particularly), is expressly "out of bounds" as all FAs were done without resorting to pulling on plants. The predominant ethic (at least it was 25 years ago) was not to damage the flora. Ergo, it's out. Â 4) Likewise at Seneca Rocks, WV. "Trees are aid." It is even written in the ancient scrolls (guidebook) for the area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 Â Interesting response. Â As far at the BOC tree at index....if you can reach it, its on. IMO. Â I disagree. And in fact, at least one guidebook may expressly prohibit it. Â Â Are guide books the bible? I think not......they are just a guide.....not an end all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 I agree with Gary. For the most part, all vegetative material in the alpine is in. Â Â So "where" and what "elevation" the crag is determines if you can grab a tree or not? Â this to me seems so simple. If you can reach it....its on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 If you can reach it....its on. And for this reason, along with a plethora of others, you will be forever relegated to climbing wimpdom. Try to make yourself just a bit better, by striving to do something just a bit harder. There is enough LCD rampant in this world without contributing and promoting more of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 And for this reason, along with a plethora of others, you will be forever relegated to climbing wimpdom. Â I suppose wimpdon is better than contrivedom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pink Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 dod's jam is a perfect example, kinda cool that its there. it would be kinda cool to see it go away. who fucking cares anyway, you do it like ya did it... ya just gotta tell that tale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 And for this reason, along with a plethora of others, you will be forever relegated to climbing wimpdom. Â I suppose wimpdon is better than contrivedom. Each according to his gifts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted May 25, 2009 Author Share Posted May 25, 2009 dod's jam is a perfect example, kinda cool that its there. it would be kinda cool to see it go away. who fucking cares anyway, you do it like ya did it... ya just gotta tell that tale. Â Dods is a great example. Question is......if you step on or grab the tree, is that considered freeing the route? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 How about the old rotten log on Royal Arches direct? Was that in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakaranai Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I think the tree to get to the undercling traverse pitch of the Grand Wall is usually utilized isnt it? I know I did. You have to use the "culturally modified cedars" on climbs like Gonch Pull. Just because they took the time to sculpt it so. I thought that a heavy set friend of mine might break, the "Woody" if you will, as he yarded away. It remained erect afterwords but made us think about how much more abuse the "stiffy" could endure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted May 25, 2009 Author Share Posted May 25, 2009 How about the old rotten log on Royal Arches direct? Was that in? Â Of course its in....but are you freeing it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 The tree is a natural feature unlike hanging on either placed protection or bolts. You're climbing on part of the cliff/mountain. Of course if you fell a tree onto a crag so you can bypass hard moves then that would be aid climbing. Â Past that it's either a local ethics, or style points thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 If a tree falls on the route and there's no one there to smear it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 How about the old rotten log on Royal Arches direct? Was that in? Â Of course its in....but are you freeing it? 'bone- From your questions returned to the myriad responses to your original question in this thread, it appears to me that you are searching for a rationalization to your using vegetable matter to assist in your completion of a particular route. Get over yourself; you did not free it unless the predominant ethic for the route ways that the tree is in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted May 26, 2009 Author Share Posted May 26, 2009 'bone- it appears to me that you are searching for a rationalization to your using vegetable matter to assist in your completion of a particular route. Â Speculation, pure and simple. You are very good at it...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bstach Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 The answer to this question is only relevant if you are into chest beating. Stop worrying about it. Go climb and have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherri Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 I love the first couple "tree pitches" of Calculus(Squamish). I think the rock should be "out" on those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 I have climbed some big trees in Oregon. Often 100' to get to the limbs. But alas, I aided them with spurs. Â As for the Royal Arched question, That was rhetorical. It was in on the first ascent and in until it plummeted. The whole discussion is subject to personal preference unless you are claiming chest beating privleges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 bstach and Bug nailed it. I'm speculating (happy now, 'bone?) that the 'bone is angling for a way to chestbeat about some heinous climb he recently "mastered", yet before he publicly beats his pecs here, he seeks consensus regarding the validity of the ascent as it pertains to stepping on the tree. Only then will he grant us the knowledge of which climb in particular that it was he "conquered." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted May 26, 2009 Author Share Posted May 26, 2009 bstach and Bug nailed it. Â I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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