Ethics - seconds & stuck gear

[Cranbo]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find such a thread anywhere... and I'm sure there's no "right" answer... and I'm sure I'll get lotsa snide remarks but hey, it's raining out, so...

 

What do y'all do when a second on a trad climb can't clean a piece of gear? Does he "owe" it to the leader? (Assuming it's the leader's gear). Should they split the cost? Figure it will all even out in the end?

 

This happened to some friends recently, and altho I told 'em my opinion (I favor #3, above), I thought I'd see if there's a consensus here.

 

Thanks,

- rob

 

Edited May 13, 2009 by Cranbo

[hafilax]

I've never asked someone to pay for fixed gear seriously although I always joke about it.

 

The only time I ever lost any gear my partner immediately payed for half when I told him the cost. I didn't ask for it and it wouldn't have bothered me if he didn't pay a cent.

 

It's really a decision of the partnership and is one of those things that's good to discuss before climbing. Kind of like a prenup.

[ivan]

if you placed it, and niether you nor anybody else can get it out, then you have a moral obligation to replace it

 

i would never, as a second, pay for a piece of gear that you placed that couldn't be removed, and would laugh in your face if you asked me too w/o even trying to get it out yourself!

 

it's a sensitive subject, so applying an iron-law is a bad idea - working it out over a is always best

[hemp22]

i don't think it's really an ethics question - more of a morals / personality question.

So, my answer would be "do unto others...."

 

The one time a partner got a piece of my gear stuck (he was leading on my rack), he replaced it for me the same day.

The one time I was following & couldn't get out a piece put in by the leader, I offered to replace it & he declined.

 

If you're overly concerned about it, then yeah, discussing ahead of time is probably a good idea. And agreeing to split the cost is maybe a good compromise - since it can be as much the leader's fault as the follower's fault. (but I'd lean towards itusually being the leader's fault)

 

but it's not really ethics, unless you're losing so much gear that you're altering the climb for other people who come later...in which case, all you need to do it tell me where you climb...

Edited May 13, 2009 by hemp22

[Pete_H]

What you do is offer to replace your partner's brand new C4 you lost with a similar size of your rusty retired double stem camalot or rigid stem friend with fraying trigger wire that's been sitting in the bottom your gear crate for the last five years. Even Steven.

[kevbone]

Five of us were climbing Easter Island in the Creek in two parties. I had the first lead. I placed a gear anchor. A three piece anchor. All cams in perfect cracks. As I left the anchor first I pulled out all three pieces (not at the same time and this was NOT a hanging belay) to make sure non of them were stuck, because one of the pieces was a tight fit. The last person up could not get out the tight fit gold Camelot. On the way down all five of us tried to get it out….I pride myself on being able to get out cams when no one else can. It was not coming out.

 

The owner of the came wanted it replaced. Nobody bucked up right away so eyes fell on me because I placed it. I told them I took it out easily when I left the anchor and since all five people climbed over the anchor we all are liable. We all eventually pitched in the money to buy him a new cam but it took about a month and he was rather pissy……

 

Good or bad?

 

[mountainmatt]

I just always go with the split it rule. Whether its poorly placed, you are bailing, etc. You are partners on the route together, so I figure its a 50:50 kinda thing. But Ivan is right, its always better to discuss these things over

[jshamster]

My mother couldn't clean my red tricam at Lover's Leap a few years ago.

I didn't ask, but she replaced it.

 

I overcammed my buddies #6 camalot at the Creek. Spent a ton of time trying to get it loose to no avail. I replaced it. User error.

 

Every situation is different. Those are my only two examples.

 

Cheers.

Jimbo

[shaoleung]

If you drop your partner's gear but you climb with him all the time, it'd be worth offering... but it'd be worth declining the offer too. If you're climbing with someone you don't usually climb with, replacement would be a good idea.

[Maxtrax]

For any gear that is either fixed or left behind on an alpine climb my partner and I split it 50/50 no matter who placed it or who couldn't clean it.

 

For cragging we generally follow the above rule except in a case where someone was very obviously a dumbass (i.e. trying to place a #3 camalot in a pod that a #2 will barely go into), then the burden of replacement is on the dumbass.

[jmace]

What do y'all do when a second on a trad climb can't clean a piece of gear?

 

The leader knows if he stuffed it in there so if your second cant remove it then lower down take it out yourself or its the leaders loss.

 

If a second drops a piece a gear he pays for it or goes and finds it.

 

Bail gear is 50/50

 

100$ is never worth losing a friend or making an enemy so if your climbing with a cheap friend buck up and move on.

[TMO]

I always figure that gear will be stuck or dropped from time to time, one of the prices of climbing. I've never even worried about it being a "owing" situation, but then again I've not lost enough gear to worry about it.

[marc_leclerc]

There have been a few cases where I have had a second forget to unclip/clean and rotated my cam and gotten it stuck. Then he/she should replace it. I prefer leading on my own rack in case I get a peice stuck... but If a friend got my cam stuck retardedly shoving in a thin crack or something then I would expect him/her to replace it...

[Cranbo]

I told my buddy another option is to replace the leader's somewhat used Camalot with a similar piece off my bud's rack, then go buy *himself* the shiny new cam!

- r

[TarHeelEMT]

It all depends on context. At crag climbs, it's usually because the leader was a dumbass, and he should usually have to pay for it. I'm also really cool with the 50/50 split, depending on personalities.

[JosephH]

Placing and cleaning gear is one of the more interesting parts of roped free and aid soloing - you have to eat your own dogfood as it were. Over time it definitely changed how I set pro relatiive to being kinder on the second (me).

[Drederek]

this sounds like something the Mountaineers might have a rule for...

If you place a piece of gear thats difficult to remove, and your partner has to hang to try and get it out and can't, who's the dick?

[letsroll]

situation dependant. Unless the leader places a bad piece it is the seconds job. Usually lower and the leader tries himself. I climb with a guy who overcams just about ever cam. It has been close a couple of times, but so far so good.

[Choada_Boy]

If the second cannot remove a piece the leader placed, they both are retarded. Whoever owns the gear must pay the Stupid Tax. If I let you place my gear and you get it stuck and I can't get it out, I'm retarded for picking a shitty partner who got my gear stuck. Stupid Tax. The reverse is true as well. If you leave your cam on the top of Silverhorn, you can blame it on me for two years before someone finds it and gets it back too you.

 

Alternately, you could get a real job and quit whining and getting pissy over money. Poor people suck.

[Off_White]

If you leave your cam on the top of Silverhorn, you can blame it on me for two years before someone finds it and gets it back too you.

 

Don't forget the fine tactic of airing your dirty laundry on the internet, people really love that sort of vicarious thing.

[Bug]

I like to follow newbies and claim their "stuck" gear as booty.

When I summered in the Valley I would get up early and free-solo the lower Apron to collect gear. Built a nice rack.

Now, whenever I am in Icicle, I cruise the R&D early.

I would be happy to return the gear to the owner if they are available but that is usually not the case.

 

If a second cannot get one of my peices out, I assume it is my fault. It is still cheaper than skiing.

[Off_White]

When I summered in the Valley I would get up early and free-solo the lower Apron to collect gear. Built a nice rack.

 

Friend of mine rapped the Nose several times for the same reason.

 

Cheaper than skiing indeed, good point. Lift tickets are priced like cams these days.

[Pete_H]

Go to the areas where there have just been climbing accidents. Find all sorts of shit there.

[cbcbd]

Too many variables:

Who's rack is it, who is leading, what is your partner relationship (long time, one-day), the mechanics of the situation, the climb (mountain or crag?), and the piece used. It's a case by case thing.

 

My rule is that if it's my gear and the situation allows then I want to take a personal look at it to see if I did something truly wrong and can remove it myself - the last two pieces that I placed that were deemed stuck by the seconds (a nut and a #1 C4) were later removed by me in less than 30sec.

 

I actually just recently had a case where I lent a few pieces to a new leader met that day and they placed my cam deep in a crack close to overcamming and then pushed it in by mistake, officially overcamming it and really lodging it in there. Bloody fingers and all the tricks resulted in nothing. I inspected the stuck cam and it was really leader fault - but could it also be my naivete for lending a stranger my gear without knowing their placement knowledge? Leader offered to pay full price for replacement, I resisted enough and took 1/2 of the offered amount. I felt that worked well for the situation as it was the leader's fault, I was out a cam, the cam wasn't new and gotten on discount, and the leader was very insistent on paying for it.

 

IMO, as for pieces:

-Nuts should (98%) be able to be removed by a 2nd unless it is fallen on. It is passive and got into a slot somehow and usually only set with a hand tug (exception is for aid)- it can come out with some messing around to unlock the sequence.

 

-Cams are tricky - obviously overcammed or a cam that walked due to clipping directly to the cam sling or clipping with a stiff draw can be the leader's fault - all things that can be avoided by better placements. If the leader can't get it out either then he should be ok with eating the cost even if the 2nd offers to replace.

 

-I like Tricams. They are one of the trickiest to remove - I always show my 2nds their mechanics for going in and therefore how they can't be taken out like a nut. The trickiest usually require two hands, one with a nut tool. Haven't had a 2nd leave one behind yet.

Edited May 14, 2009 by cbcbd

[frankstoneline]

As a rule of thumb, I'll offer to split stuck gear if it's off my partner's rack (if I have the cash, if not, I'll pay it back when I do). This moves the moral obligations from my shoulders to theirs. At this point it is up to them to either accept or decline. I dont really expect others to split costs on lost gear on my rack, though it can be a pleasant surprise. Seems like a pretty inexpensive cost unless you get a lot of shit stuck. Splitting is like saving 25 or 30 bucks on a new piece every once in a while. I think ultimately it evens out.