Climbing with minors - legal implications?

[tomtom]

I might oughtta inquire about the umbella policy, though. Can TomTom suggest that it would really protect against such a disaster as where I planned and led an outing and we were cragging and Collin or Marc knocked their noggin?

 

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure. The Umbrella policy is sold as 'excess liability' insurance on top of auto or homeowner's insurance, so they cover the same sort of accidents that those policies cover. I was hoping a more knowledgeable insurance type would pipe in.

 

And as to Collin and Marc knocking noggins (or whatever kids call it these days) I'd encourage them to use adequate protection.

[sobo]

...Lets say me and an adult are rapping off V-Threads and he goes first being the heavier of the two of us. I clean the backup and go to rap but don't pay attention and set up wrong. The adult isn't there to check me to make sure I haven't f&*ked up and I end up hurtling down 300m of ice to my death. Whose fault would that be?

I would say that is my fault because I have climbed a fair bit and 'know what I'm doing' in my opinion and its my resposibility to make sure i rappel properly...

Marc, I sincerely hope that you retain that perspective, not just in climbing, but in everything that you undertake in life.

IMHO, personal responsibility is rapidly becoming an oxymoron is today's society.

[Choada_Boy]

(snip) I would say that is my fault because I have climbed a fair bit and 'know what I'm doing' in my opinion

 

In your opinion.

[marc_leclerc]

(snip) I would say that is my fault because I have climbed a fair bit and 'know what I'm doing' in my opinion

 

In your opinion.

 

why don't you think a 16 year old climber can know what they're doing? Why don't you come up here, climb with me for a couple days and then tell me that to my face.

[MarkMcJizzy]

I don't think Ron Kauk was 18 when he did Astroman

[sobo]

Correct, he was at most 17 yoa, depending upon exact dates of his birth and of the climb.

 

Ron Kauk (born 1958) is an American rock climber and Yosemite Camp 4 regular.

 

Kauk began spending summers in Yosemite in 1974[1]. In 1975 he free climbed the east face of Washington Column with John Long and John Bachar, renaming the route Astroman (5.11c).

 

 

[marc_leclerc]

Fred and Helmy Beckey spent a month in the Waddington range, ending with the second ascent of Waddington via the South Face when they were 19 and 16 respectively.

[Choada_Boy]

(snip) I would say that is my fault because I have climbed a fair bit and 'know what I'm doing' in my opinion

 

In your opinion.

 

why don't you think a 16 year old climber can know what they're doing? Why don't you come up here, climb with me for a couple days and then tell me that to my face.

 

Didn't you accidentally leave your ice tools at a rap station this winter and have to retrieve them the next day? What other mistakes are you capable of making? What other experience do you lack? Do you know?

 

I'm not trying to feed you shit, I'm simply trying to point out that many boys your age suffer from the diseases of hubris and narcissism. Don't confuse natural talent with experience, for example. 16 year old males are disposable by nature, you included, so don't think you're hot shit just yet. You owe a partner more than that.

 

And I'll say anything to your face, puke, so don't go too far down that road.

[marc_leclerc]

Yes, I left a tool at a rap station. Plenty of people have made that mistake, Robert Nugent did that a couple years ago, try to tell me that he isn't experienced, Geez. Experience and 'knowig what you are doing' are not the same thing. When I was retrieving my tool did I not see you place like 14 screws in a pitch on the WI3- pitch BTW? After you drew a picture of a dude fucking a sheep on the back of our truck? Not to confuse age with maturity.....

[DirtyHarry]

Didn't you accidentally leave your ice tools at a rap station this winter and have to retrieve them the next day?

 

One time I lost an ice tool on a trip up to the Icefields. We had some paranoid delusion that some kid whom we had given a ride into Canmore stole it, but I think it just fell out of the car.

 

I've taken off on lead a few times and gotten pretty far up the pitch before I realized I forgot the rack.

 

Brilliant.

[mattp]

Holy smokes, Choada. You may be on a mission here, but what is it? Marc may be a better or worse choice in partners than any given other who posts to this board but are you really saying that his age is the deciding factor - or even a very significant one on your list of qualifications? I doubt Marc would disagree with the proposition that age and experience are often good attributes, but what is your point?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

(snip) I would say that is my fault because I have climbed a fair bit and 'know what I'm doing' in my opinion

 

In your opinion.

 

why don't you think a 16 year old climber can know what they're doing? Why don't you come up here, climb with me for a couple days and then tell me that to my face.

 

Didn't you accidentally leave your ice tools at a rap station this winter and have to retrieve them the next day? What other mistakes are you capable of making? What other experience do you lack? Do you know?

 

I'm not trying to feed you shit, I'm simply trying to point out that many boys your age suffer from the diseases of hubris and narcissism. Don't confuse natural talent with experience, for example. 16 year old males are disposable by nature, you included, so don't think you're hot shit just yet. You owe a partner more than that.

 

And I'll say anything to your face, puke, so don't go too far down that road.

 

Dude, WTF????

 

 

[MarkMcJizzy]

 

I'm not trying to feed you shit, I'm simply trying to point out that many boys your age suffer from the diseases of hubris and narcissism. Don't confuse natural talent with experience, for example. 16 year old males are disposable by nature, you included, so don't think you're hot shit just yet. You owe a partner more than that.

 

I remember once, sitting in the van of a rather well known former Rhodie Loadie and an excellent climber from Hood River. I was the youngest at the time, and I was in my mid thirties. Mr Loadie started slagging on a very rich sport climber from Wyoming. He suddenly stopped, and said "he's just a 26 year old punk kid". So at what age does someone quit being a punk ass mother fucker. I'm thinking that Choads probably about 22

 

 

 

And I'll say anything to your face, puke, so don't go too far down that road.

 

This seems way over the line.

[sobo]

This seems way over the line.

First this:

Why don't you come up here, climb with me for a couple days and then tell me that to my face.

Then this:

And I'll say anything to your face, puke, so don't go too far down that road.

It may be over the line, but I say marc threw the glove down first.

 

 

 

[marc_leclerc]

Didn't you accidentally leave your ice tools at a rap station this winter and have to retrieve them the next day?

 

One time I lost an ice tool on a trip up to the Icefields. We had some paranoid delusion that some kid whom we had given a ride into Canmore stole it, but I think it just fell out of the car.

 

I've taken off on lead a few times and gotten pretty far up the pitch before I realized I forgot the rack.

 

Brilliant.

 

Biggest mistake I once made was starting a pitch and then realizing I hadn't removed the caps off my screws. I had to pull them all off with my teeth.

[Choada_Boy]

Experience and 'knowing what you are doing' are not the same thing. When I was retrieving my tool did I not see you place like 14 screws in a pitch on the WI3- pitch BTW? After you drew a picture of a dude fucking a sheep on the back of our truck.

 

You're proving my point for me, youth. "Knowing what you're doing" comes from "experience". You lack the experience, for example, to understand the proud tradition of man/sheep sex graffiti in the Pacific Northwest climbing community and you're showing your hubris by casting aspersions towards an unknown climber (Was that my lead?) over the screw count on a pitch. Why's that? (And we only brought ten screws, so it couldn't have been, like, 14.)

 

Here's a little thought experiment that may answer mattp's question ("WTF?"):

 

You're 16 now. Remember when you were 8? Remember how clueless and immature you were at the time, compared to yourself now? Now, imagine that you're 32. How clueless and immature will the 16 year old you look to the 32 year old you?

 

You clearly have natural talent, fitness, skill, and plenty of motivation. That's awesome. I wish I had that at your age. I was too busy getting laid. Sure, you've done some climbing, and don't take this too personally, but you're still a kid, and as such you lack two things that I think are very important to the issue at hand (the safety of a "minor" as a climbing partner): a fully formed brain and an "adult perspective".

 

For example: kids your age, especially boys, are not skilled at fully evaluating the consequences of their actions before they take those actions. Additionally, if you we're to evaluate your potential actions before taking them, you'd be doing so through a lens of experiences and perspectives of a 16 year old. What potential consequences would the 32 year old you come up with? The 16 year old you asks a total stranger to "come up here and say that to my face". Hopefully the 32 year old you wouldn't. I had a friend learn that one by regaining consciousness in an MRI after getting his face kicked in.

 

[DirtyHarry]

I would agree that the older / more experienced climbers are indeed better "sheep shagger" artists. I wouldn't say my sheep shagging art is world class or anything, but it gets the point across. Likewise, my climbing may not be stellar but I can usually make it up my 60 meters.

[pink]

[video:youtube]9RD0xCmlZcg

Edited March 23, 2009 by pink

[Choada_Boy]

I would agree that the older / more experienced climbers are indeed better "sheep shagger" artists. I wouldn't say my sheep shagging art is world class or anything, but it gets the point across.

 

Don't get down on yourself. Your sheep shagging art gets me hot.

[sk]

DPS,

 

as a mom, i would say take one of the parental units with you. Push the parent as hard as the kid is able to go. I am too lazy to read this whole thread to see if someone else said that...

 

 

[RuMR]

 

wow...challenging a 16yo to a physical confrontation? WTF...you need to grow up, jerk...

 

 

Edited March 23, 2009 by RuMR

[RuMR]

Yes, I left a tool at a rap station. Plenty of people have made that mistake, Robert Nugent did that a couple years ago, try to tell me that he isn't experienced, Geez. Experience and 'knowig what you are doing' are not the same thing. When I was retrieving my tool did I not see you place like 14 screws in a pitch on the WI3- pitch BTW? After you drew a picture of a dude fucking a sheep on the back of our truck? Not to confuse age with maturity.....

BAWHAHAHAHA

[RuMR]

This seems way over the line.

First this:

Why don't you come up here, climb with me for a couple days and then tell me that to my face.

Then this:

And I'll say anything to your face, puke, so don't go too far down that road.

It may be over the line, but I say marc threw the glove down first.

 

 

I think Marc's point was that he's every bit as competent as the loud mouf buffoon...

 

Oh, and Choada, you talk like that to one of my kids, its gonna get ugly...Legal ugly...you big bad ass

[RuMR]

Experience and 'knowing what you are doing' are not the same thing. When I was retrieving my tool did I not see you place like 14 screws in a pitch on the WI3- pitch BTW? After you drew a picture of a dude fucking a sheep on the back of our truck.

 

You're proving my point for me, youth. "Knowing what you're doing" comes from "experience". You lack the experience, for example, to understand the proud tradition of man/sheep sex graffiti in the Pacific Northwest climbing community and you're showing your hubris by casting aspersions towards an unknown climber (Was that my lead?) over the screw count on a pitch. Why's that? (And we only brought ten screws, so it couldn't have been, like, 14.)

 

Here's a little thought experiment that may answer mattp's question ("WTF?"):

 

You're 16 now. Remember when you were 8? Remember how clueless and immature you were at the time, compared to yourself now? Now, imagine that you're 32. How clueless and immature will the 16 year old you look to the 32 year old you?

 

You clearly have natural talent, fitness, skill, and plenty of motivation. That's awesome. I wish I had that at your age. I was too busy getting laid. Sure, you've done some climbing, and don't take this too personally, but you're still a kid, and as such you lack two things that I think are very important to the issue at hand (the safety of a "minor" as a climbing partner): a fully formed brain and an "adult perspective".

 

For example: kids your age, especially boys, are not skilled at fully evaluating the consequences of their actions before they take those actions. Additionally, if you we're to evaluate your potential actions before taking them, you'd be doing so through a lens of experiences and perspectives of a 16 year old. What potential consequences would the 32 year old you come up with? The 16 year old you asks a total stranger to "come up here and say that to my face". Hopefully the 32 year old you wouldn't. I had a friend learn that one by regaining consciousness in an MRI after getting his face kicked in.

see choada...you can talk like a 32 year old...sheesh...

[sk]

This seems way over the line.

First this:

Why don't you come up here, climb with me for a couple days and then tell me that to my face.

Then this:

And I'll say anything to your face, puke, so don't go too far down that road.

It may be over the line, but I say marc threw the glove down first.

 

 

I think Marc's point was that he's every bit as competent as the loud mouf buffoon...

 

Oh, and Choada, you talk like that to one of my kids, its gonna get ugly...Legal ugly...you big bad ass

 

 

this is a tough one, if my 16 yr old is so mouthy that he causes anyone to kick his ass because he is mouthing off he kind of deserves what he gets... I don't think i would sue over that. Muffins humble oppinion granted thing one is only 13 and although he is a bit of a know it all he isn't that mouthy (yet)