woodchips Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I'm interested in getting a handful of pitons for alpine wandering. I'm thinking of places where small chocks may not work, or small frozen cracks. On easy alpine climbs that are off the beaten path, I usually take a few nuts, maybe a few hexes, always my pink tricam. Occasionally it seems like a piton might be just the thing, but wondering where to start. I've never placed pins before; any suggestions on where to start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Miller Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Lost Arrows, Knifeblades and the occasional shallow angle piton seem to be the most useful in the Cascade's often shallow incipient cracks. I've some experiecnce with them, especially Lost Arrows. Still carrying 2 or 3 on previously unencountered climbs. Pitons were just becoming eclipsed by varities of Hexes and Stoppers at the time I began to start climbing so I can't by any measure be considered any sort of expert on thier use. To a large degree, the security of a given piton placement is tied into the sound the steel/iron makes when it's pounded into the crack. If you can hunt down an old copy of the Mountaineer's, Freeedom of the Hills from perhaps the earlier 1970's you will find fairly good guidance therein. Practicing placement on low level cliffs somewhere after you've purchased some and of course a piton hammer and/or an ice tool or northwall hammer wil likely yield the results you are interested in. No doubt some of the IFMGA/UIAGM certified guides in this area could likewise teach the requisite skills. Best of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stopgo Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I'm interested in what people are recommending too, as I'm just getting into alpine climbing and would like to learn the skills necessary to lead mixed terrain. On a similar note: where are some good places in the Seattle area to practice general lead placements (stoppers, cams, etc). I don't want to drive too far, but I'd like a decent canvas to practice on. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 practice on junk clifflets - as said, smaller knifeblades adn lost arrows and angles seem best round here, in the winter - best way to gain proficiency though is to aid climb, where they still get frequent use - there are plenty of aid lines that folks have just plain forgot about since the free-climbing revolution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 if you just want to test gear placements of all sorts, do it on cracks that are just off the ground - place'em, put a runner on them, then load the shit out of them to see how they hold. don't hammer at crags that are developed unless you're ready to kill some sport-climber 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Miller Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Woodchips, Possibly this link will prove some benefit: The Black Art of Piton Placement http://vertical20.com/uploads/Pitoncraft.pdf I've only scanned it, so caveat emptor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pink Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 circles in circles and squares in squares.... tie offs can be useful if your dong is to long... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkMcJizzy Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 On a similar note: where are some good places in the Seattle area to practice general lead placements (stoppers, cams, etc). I don't want to drive too far, but I'd like a decent canvas to practice on. Thanks! When I was a teenager, we used to go the the railroad tracks in Shoreline and practice on the rockery there. South of Richmond Beach Park all the way to Golden Gardens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodchips Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 Thanks for all the suggestions. Two questions: On a route where you only need one tool, would you just take a light alpine axe with a hammer? I've got a CAMP alpax It seems like a good tool for this, but I've never really used the hammer bit. What specific sizes would be the most useful? The smallest ones of all three styles (lost arrows, knifblades, and angles?) Or stick with a few sizes of one style? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mtguide Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Royal Robbins' two little books "Basic Rockcraft" and "Advanced Rockcraft", each have a short treatise on "pitoncraft", which are useful, as does even the most recent edition of "Mountaineering:Freedom of the Hills". Their section on pitoncraft is really very thorough. Regarding the use of sound to judge the "soundness" of a placement, the pin driven into a good, solid placement will ring kind of like a tuning fork(not that sustained), with a "ding" or "ping",at a higher pitch with each successive blow of the hammer, until it rings at a consistent pitch, or is driven to, or close to, the limit of the eye. Conversely, a poor, insecure placement, will render only a dull, toneless, "thock" or "whock" or "clack", no ringing at all. An ideal placement will take only a few strikes to get to that high-pitched ringing point, will provide bomber holding strength, yet will be relatively easy too remove by first striking the pin as far as it will go one way, then hammering it back the other way till it's easily pulled out with the fingers. Notice that I said "ideal"; that's not usually what you're gonna get, but that's the standard to go by in judging your placements, both for strength AND ease of removal, which = safety + speed. Be careful not to "overdrive" pitons, especially in bottoming cracks. Chrome moly steel is amazingly tough, but it is possible to curl the ends over by bashing them into cracks too shallow for the length of the pin,and driving a pin all the way to the eye when it's already perfectly good enough 1/4" shy of that, can simply make for a lot of unnecessary work trying to get the pin out, and also winds up trashing the rock surrounding the crack. This is how some of the most famous aid lines and free cracks in Yosemite became nothing more than a vertical row of huge, ugly pin scars which any dumbnuts monkey with fists could climb.This is where using a little common sense about pin selection for length and thickness comes in handy. More on that later. For stubborn pins,the current version of the Chouinard Yosemite Hammer features a carabiner hole in the blunt pick, to which you can clip a sling or swaged cable leash about 24' to 30" long, with the other end clipped into the pin. You then simply hammer outward into thin air, directly away from the pin, using your strength and the weight of the hammer to jerk the pin right out of the crack. Be sure to loosen up the pin as best you can before you do this; be sure that you're in a good, secure stance so as not hurl yourself off into space; and be careful to keep your head out of the way so you don't get a "Diamond C" branded on the back of your skull or across the side of your nose, or wind up with a new earring. Finally, except for the smallest angles, thin Lost Arrows, maybe a Lost Arrow spoon,(but a short knifeblade or Bugaboo is just about the same thing),rurps(Realized Ultimate Reality Piton), knifeblades and Bugaboos, pitons really have been completely superceded by the vast variety and range of cams, chocks, hexes,nuts,tubes, tricams, wires and small wires, stoppers, hooks and wedges out there. I can't think that anyone truly has a need anymore for a standard 3/4" or 1" angle on up, bongs, etc., or for any of the thicker or "Long Dong" Lost Arrows, at least for warm weather climbing. (For winter or early mixed alpine with verglas in the cracks, pins, especially angles, come in for lots of use. Cams and other passive pro don't hold too well on ice.) Besides, that shit is HEAVY. The only thing I will say is that there are times when I'd far rather rap off of a well placed knifeblade or Bugaboo, than I would from something like one or two small wires.It would all depend on the placement, whether vertical or horizontal to the direction of fall, the quality of the rock, etc. Nonetheless, pins ARE wedge-shaped, and they CAN pull out, whereas the great leap in thought of TURNING THAT WEDGE AROUND is what ushered in the whole new era of advanced "clean" protection in climbing. But no one has come up with a wire that can fit into a knifeblade crack and provide good pro, just yet. I wouldn't head up any little-known wilderness big wall without a good selection of knifeblades and Bugaboos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mtguide Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Woodchips, Possibly this link will prove some benefit: The Black Art of Piton Placement http://vertical20.com/uploads/Pitoncraft.pdf I've only scanned it, so caveat emptor. Dan, many thanks,that's the best treatise I've ever seen on the use of pitons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 just an opinion, but I think the lost arrows are a bit too heavy for alpine use. Seems like if you need a lost arrow pin, then just looks around for a second or so and you will find a KB or small angle placement instead. I don't have the specs, but it feels like you could have 2 or more KB for the weight of one lost arrow. Not that I have placed many pins, but my ideal pin selection would be about 3 short KB and a couple small angles. (in addition to a decent rock rack) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 It depends on what kind of rock you plan to climb. Short soft iron pins are often Lost arrow style and place in many cracks where the standard knifeblade or Bugaboo does not go in so well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 True that some cracks will need a lost arrow and in some situations, like on a big wall granite face or sketchy mixed climb, you don't have many options. But my idea was that the mountains are full of cracks and if the KB or angle won't fit in that one spot then looks around a little and another spot will be available. Much like when you got the wrong nut size for the crack constriction you were looking at and instead of getting the right size, you plop that little guy in another constriction nearby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korup Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) I often take one or two shorter Bugaboos (#5 and 6?) on adventure climbs. For dicey rap anchors, or building a super bomber rescue anchor, they can't be beat, and they aren't really that heavy. I just found a chossy roadcut and spent a few hours bashing and pulling to get a feel. Edited February 28, 2009 by korup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 exactly! bugaboos are very similar to knifeblades, just a little longer. My previous post was more about lost arrows which are relatively heavy. I checked the BD website and the weights for lost arrow and similar sized bugaboos are about the same. #2 short med LA and the #5 short medium weight same at 70 grams. (granted the bugaboo is 50% longer) The knife blades come in at around 20 grams and small angles come in at around 50 to 70 grams. http://www.bdel.com/gear/detail/knifeblades_detail.php#knifeblades So what do all these number crunching means? Nothing really. What does a few ounces here and there mean? Nothing really. Go get whatever is on sale and smack them into whatever you seem reasonable. Plenty of cracks that no one will mind, if you hike into the mountains for a couple of hours. Smack the hell out of them. Careful getting them back out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainwreck Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 just an opinion, but I think the lost arrows are a bit too heavy for alpine use. Seems like if you need a lost arrow pin, then just looks around for a second or so and you will find a KB or small angle placement instead. I don't have the specs, but it feels like you could have 2 or more KB for the weight of one lost arrow. Not that I have placed many pins, but my ideal pin selection would be about 3 short KB and a couple small angles. (in addition to a decent rock rack) i place lots of pins as i climb in the Canadian rockies. i've honestly found the two smallest LAs and KBs are the ticket. i've left more LAs as rap anchors than any other piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montypiton Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 and if you ever come across a cache of old Leeper Z-pins, take what you think you want, then let me know, and I'll take the rest of them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeroforhire Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 too bad Leeper stopped making pins and stuff... his stuff was always bomber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Leeper Z pitons held better and pound for pound, way outperformed every other pin out there: couldn't be beat except with a hammer. Note on hammers. Heavier is better as far as driving pins goes. Lighter is better for alpine so you don't have to carry a bunch of weight which may not be needed. So pick and choose. The Forrest Moljinar multi-pick jobs would be great for alpine as it is much lighter than the wall hammers and you can choose your picks for the job at hand. The Forrest Moljnir is the Top hammer in the picture, they have 4 or 5 different interchangeable picks, the pick seen is for rock. I did a google search and there was no images to link of the various pics. The major ones are a water ice tubular pick and a curved alpine pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 For alpine, Leeper Z's aren't so great. I've gone through a couple dozen short LAs, Bugaboos and Kbs, and small angles for raps & so on and still have the same 4 LZs that I bought 10 years ago. A Leeper and two small-med angles works great for breaking open locks, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 jesus bill! you feel like unloading one of those hammers to the make ivan a rock star fund and in order to open a bit more room for your sledgehammer collection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montypiton Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 hey g-spotter - anytime you feel like unloading those Leeper Zs, just lemmee know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 For alpine, Leeper Z's aren't so great. I've gone through a couple dozen short LAs, Bugaboos and Kbs, and small angles for raps & so on and still have the same 4 LZs that I bought 10 years ago. Concur on the utility for long alpine routes. If I was going up for the long alpine routes today, I'd try and grab some of the titanium pins and go with only one or 2 high alloy. They don't work as good, but they're lighter and I'm pretty much a weak assed pussy anymore. Ivan, I have one of my Forrest Wall Hammers (#2 in the top picture above) currently on permanent loan with the Jim Opdycke collection, I'm sure he'll let you borrow it if you need it:-) It's the same one I loaned him for a 2 week Yosemite trip in the 80's and I got it back about 9 years later:-) If he doesn't loan it let me know and I'll loan you one, you're already a rock star in my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I'm jealous of you collection Bill. I've swung the forrest before and found it to be the ultimate. ----------- Pass the word to start leaving pins in place on alpine routes around the cascades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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