Breaking News at Broughton's!

[crimper]

Slightly sarcastic title. I'd write more if I could BUT i just walked under the Bat Wall, 2 kids in tow, and saw 2 guys drilling bolt 13 of 13 in a row, about 3 feet apart and maybe 40 feet up on the left side of the Bat Wall, maybe 10-15 feet left of Dracula. It appears the route might be crossing one or more aid climbs. The belayer, Tom, told me they had researched the issue and decided to drill a "practice aid route" in that location because it was pretty "far out there." We had some more exchanges, but I'll omit them for now.

 

Anyway, the aid routes were put up by Wayne Wallace and Tim Olson and I wonder if these guys contacted them.

 

Bottom line: I'm not the rock police, but this seemed to be really questionable ethics on a beautiful smooth orange chunk of stone on a premier free climbing wall. Other thoughts/intervention ideas?

[Winter]

chop chop.

[ivan]

these things seem to work themselves out just fine

[crimper]

to clarify, the "Tom" is not "Tom Scales."

 

also, i'm not positive their bolts cross the aid lines but when i got home and looked at olson's guide, it sure seemed likely they crossed/followed the A4 roof variation.

[corvallisclimb]

[hemp22]

Yeah, sounds like seriously bad choice of locations for a "practice" bolt ladder.

It also sounds like these people weren't very receptive to you trying to reason with them?

 

I think Olson still checks this site sometimes, right? - maybe he could go check it out & see if it does overlap the old line.

[Joe_Poulton]

...a practice bolt ladder. Come on, go out to the Monkey Face and practice going up and down on that bolt ladder in the rain and snow until another party comes along...definitely not a clean choice of action.

[billcoe]

these things seem to work themselves out just fine

 

My thoughts as well. Having a bolt ladder for aiding isn't the end of the world although I know others will argue endlessly otherwise. If it crowds an existing route that's another matter of course. However, I'm so far away emotionally from Broughtons that I don't even feel like I should have a voice anyway. I might have climbed there once last year, but I can't remember why. I know a solid trad climber who has approached me about putting a bolt ladder up in the gorge at a more remote, abiet historic, location - I passed on helping out. Although it's not my thing, I could understand having one to access a remote pinnacle that gets climbed about every 15 years...if that.

 

There is a ladder at the butte thats' been there since probably the 50's or early 60's. However, the hangers were removed at least 37 years ago so it's just rusty old 1/4" studs. It's pretty much invisible unless you get right up on it and squint. Then maybe you'll see it. I know that almost all of the people who have stood right under it have not seen it. Could it be the worlds first A3 bolt ladder?:-)

 

I suspect this is eventually going to turn into a very involved, long, self righteous thread, so let me only say it once: thanks for the heads up Bryan - but speaking only for myself, this ladder to nowhere doesn't bother me.

[eldiente]

Practice bolt ladder? Huh? Why? Even if your a total rookie, surely you could go down to Classic crack or any of the other cracks around town and practice aiding. If your really green and don't trust your bomber cam placements, drop a TR down classic crack and aid with a fixed rope on you.

 

Ethics aside, who the hell has the time/motivation to go through all that trouble to fix bolts that they themselves will probably only use once? Who are these people? If you know to place a bolt, surely you'd know how pointless a practice aid ladder is.

-Nate

[John Frieh]

this seemed to be really questionable ethics on a beautiful smooth orange chunk of stone on a premier free climbing wall.

 

Funny you mention "questionable ethics" as an argument against an aid ladder as a few sport routes out there sport chipped holds.

 

But yeah: likely many much better places for an aid ladder.

 

 

[JosephH]

So Ivan, what does that mean - "work themselves out" ? If by 'themselves' you mean the bolts, then I hope not - the idea is for them to hold tight in the rock and stay put.

 

If you mean 'people', then it would seem there are only two paths a) everyone remains unrighteous, apathetic, too-tired-of-it-all, or too-busy-to-be-bothered and the bolts stay; or b) people get (lordy) 'righteous', take offense, remove the bolts, and patch the rock. I'm not really seeing an option 'c' here.

 

But really (getting a bit 'righteous' and what all), is this what it's coming down too - that there are no 'bad' bolts? That once bolts go in they are protected by an entirely opposite righteousness - an indignation and exclamation of the "inhumanity of it all" at the mere suggestion maybe the bolts are inappropriate and should come out.

 

I'm just guessing here, but is the prevailing idea these days that there's really no meaningful difference at all between rock and concrete, that "...this rock's for you...!", or is it just a matter of bolt-war weariness?

 

And, following up on Nate's comment, the Butte, Broughton, Ozone, and Beacon all collectively have plenty of lines at all levels of difficulty to practice aid climbing on. Sounds like these guys were more interested in practicing bolting, or are really just into spaiding. Seems to me like a road cut, concrete wall, telephone pole, or even the bouldering wall below the road at the Butte would be more appropriate places for this sort of thing.

 

At least that's my "righteous" view on it. And hell, who knows, I have no personal affinity for Broughton's and maybe, as some seem to be suggesting, none of the folks who do give a damn anymore so it's not a problem at all?

 

P.S. It sure would be interesting to know what exactly their "research" consisted of - I'm guessing it didn't include walking into the the PRG and asking Gary, or posting here on cc for what folks thought of the idea.

Edited January 26, 2009 by JosephH

[crimper]

eldiente/nate: i asked what the point of drilling a practice bolt ladder was, since you can only "practice" drilling on lead once on a given line, but i was met with some pretty nonsensical reply that smith was too far away, and that they had researched the issue and decided that the bat wall was "far enough out there."

 

that's when i got more interested because i realized these guys probably didn't have a clue, or a context for their "route," yet here they were drilling bolt 13 of a bolt ladder that will go - and here is the funny part - not to a summit or new terrain but to an anchor they already installed at about 65 feet. they already rapped the line, even!(it was like watching someone use a machine gun on a harmless and beautiful animal)

 

i am not trying to make a "superiority" argument here by implying that only "experts" should have the right to drill bolt ladders. BUT there should at least be a point to drilling a bolt ladder BEYOND the driller's singular and unrepeatable experience of drilling 18 bolts. right?

 

or can anyone with a drill and some charged batteries and over $150 worth of bolts/hangers drill bolt ladders anywhere and anytime? i felt like i stumbled onto an accident scene right before the ambulance arrives to clean up the mess. so who's gonna clean it up?

 

PS: Hey Bill - not "self-righteous" because I'm not going to talk about how many bolts I haven't drilled on the routes I've put up, just "concerned and curious" if this was A-OK behavior and whether their route is gonna be there a year from now.

 

[crimper]

hey joseph, as usual you make some good points.

 

i was just appalled by what i saw, and so i asked question after question, and the more i asked the more i felt sick. i explained that there are 6-7 walls past the bat wall that perhaps were more suitable, and asked if they'd considered going there, or to an obscure crag or even undeveloped cliff and they told me that smith was too far. when they said they had done research i asked if they had spoken with a few of the FA parties on Bat Wall routes and they said "no" as if my question was a crazy one.

 

the responses showed me they don't know anything about local ethics or history - and didn't really care. they just wanted to bolt on lead on a steep wall, goddamn it, and right here in portland within 15 minutes of their car! furthermore, there's a good chance they bolted right over existing aid lines without even knowing it!

 

so i guess i am openly wondering if anyone cares.

 

better yet, does anyone know these guys and want to try to talk some sense into them? i saw 2 cars that i think were theirs, as there were no other climbers at least to the bat wall, and all other vehicles were fishermens'. PM me and we can discuss.

[JosephH]

Tyler, nice set of tuning forks you got there, especially like the bugs - slick...!

[eldiente]

Sounds like they may be non-climbers, like the sport rappelers you'd see every so often back in the Midwest. This isn't bolt vs no-bolts, this is just someone out vandalizing the rock. No different than if someone went out there and bolted a metal staircase to the wall or cut a tree down to practice using their chainsaw.

 

Could you report them to the cops or the Park Ranger? It might be good to let the Ranger know that this was not climbers, just some red-necks testing out their new drill.

 

-Nate

 

 

[eldiente]

Oh and btw Crimper you have plate numbers or anything about their car? I'd be in favor of calling the cops on this and/or drowning them in the river.

[el jefe]

this seemed to be really questionable ethics on a beautiful smooth orange chunk of stone on a premier free climbing wall.

 

Funny you mention "questionable ethics" as an argument against an aid ladder as a few sport routes out there sport chipped holds.

 

But yeah: likely many much better places for an aid ladder.

 

 

not sure i understand your point, john. just because ethically questionable practices have occurred in the past doesn't mean that anything anyone wants to do is now okay. sounds like a stupid route put up by stupid people.

[crimper]

i'm trying hard not to slander these guys. the belayer, Tom, was in his 40s and had all the gear (down jacket, helmet) you'd expect on a climber. he did not strike me as a redneck, or unintelligent - just misguided and unaware of the implications of drilling a bolt ladder on a free climbing wall - and possibly retrobolting an aid line - just 20 miles from downtown portland.

 

nate, i like your humor, but i don't want to see anything happen to them - although if someone can contact them they should be a) educated and b) encouraged to chop their own route so someone else won't.

[kevbone]

Interesting topic. …..

 

Lets not forget that they are doing something perfectly legal and on public land. It also appears they did research it at least a little…..or they might have been bolting right next to classic crack, drilling while hanging on good nut placement. They choose a piece of rock that either has not been climbed on or has not been climbed on for many, many years. Hence the “old” aid line. I will need to see it first hand before I pass judgment. Second I will need to do some research into exactly where the “old” aid line it and if they are crossing it.

 

As far as ethics…..I would never do such a thing but it’s a hard argument to make for those who have placed bolts in the past that your bolts are better than theirs.

 

 

 

[JosephH]

Well, that's one vote for spaiding...

[kevbone]

I am not advocating for what they did is ok. It’s just there are two sides to every coin. Until you go see for yourself JH....you are just speculating about hearsay. .

 

 

[crimper]

kevbone, all bolts are not equal.

 

if they were all equal, why have you posted pictures in the past of bolted cracks at smith?

 

actually, i know the answer: they offended you and your sense of ethics and fairness. you considered them to be mistakes that you wanted to share so that these mistakes wouldn't be repeated somewhere else.

[JosephH]

Kevin, I actually trust Bryan with my life when I climb with him, I'll take his word that he's accurately representing what he saw.

 

Rap-bolting an anchor and then spaiding up to it is what he's recounted here. I don't need to go see it. Are you implying it's somehow a different then it would be on a tree, telephone pole, the bouldering wall below the road at the Butte, or a concrete bridge support just because it happened on a rock?

 

I'm missing exactly what it is that's essential for me to see to understand what went on, or to decide it's an inappropriate application of bolting - or that it was wholly unnecessary in order to 'practice aid climbing' close to PDX.

Edited January 26, 2009 by JosephH

[kevbone]

kevbone, all bolts are not equal.

 

if they were all equal, why have you posted pictures in the past of bolted cracks at smith?

 

actually, i know the answer: they offended you and your sense of ethics and fairness. you considered them to be mistakes that you wanted to share so that these mistakes wouldn't be repeated somewhere else.

 

 

I see the point you are making and it is a fair one at that. Bolting a crack is different than bolting a face.

[JosephH]

Bolting a crack is different than bolted a face.

 

So are you saying you'd have no problem with more squeeze jobs out at Ozone...?