does damnation crack need a fixed pin?

[markwebster]

so I led Damnation crack 5.9 last weekend at Castle rock (left side of Jello tower). Beautiful route! Hadn't done it in a quarter century but it felt great after warming up in Yosemite.

 

There is a big ledge about 30 feet up where you could park a wheelbarrow. About 12 feet above that I got my last piece of pro: a number 2 bigbro. 8 feet higher the chimney climbing got thin but there is a thin seam on the river side where you can place some 2 to 3 mm wired nuts, more for confidence than for catching a fall. You have to climb another 8 or so feet before there is any solid gear.

 

I had some concerns about decking on the ledge.

 

In the thin seam,there is an old rusty spot, like someone pulled an old fixed knifeblade, which would be bomber there.

Options:

I could take up a knife blade piton and tap it in lightly with a hex, and my partner could clean it, probly safer than the wires.

 

I could place it properly with a hammer and fix it.

 

I could bang it in and out a few times to make a decent pin scar so it could take a solid wire

 

or I could buy a #3 bigbro to fit the 12 inch chimney.

 

Or I could just solo it again, like last time.

 

 

Am I being a pussy again?

Any thoughts?

[AlpineK]

 

Damnation does not need a piton!

 

There's plenty of places for protection on the route. There are places up on the route where small pro does just fine.

[Drederek]

No.

[telemarker]

Mark,

 

What the hell are you talking about? Jesus! There is a pod 15 feet up that takes either a small stopper or small alien, an off set alien green/yellow fits perfectly in it. 7 feet above that pod there's more pro. Then 4 feet above that ther's a horizontal that you can plug up to your heart's content.

 

The chimnying is perfect knee to toe. You're not going to fall.

 

Yes, you're being a pussy. No piton.

 

John

[telemarker]

Note where the pod is, and the alien. Climber: Kyle Flick

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2008 by telemarker

[Sol]

hells no.

 

another option is to just toprope it.

 

telemarker got it right, offset aliens work great in that spot (and on most trad routes in ltown).

Edited November 3, 2008 by Sol

[catbirdseat]

I've followed Telemarker myself on that route. I don't remember it being run out anywhere.

 

Oh, and by the way, happy 13,000th post to me!

[sill]

Absolutely Not

[ZONK]

WTF ?

why would even think about it ?

 

[G-spotter]

Fixed pins suck. They rust, weaken over time, break or rip when fallen on, fall out when subject to freeze-thaw, and/or scar cracks.

[Sol]

Fixed pins suck. They rust, weaken over time, break or rip when fallen on, fall out when subject to freeze-thaw, and/or scar cracks.

 

while we're on the subject of fixed pins and castle rock. a friend recently pulled the manky fixed pin protecting the roof on shriek of the multilated(croft/yoder 12a), to reveal a perfect green alien placement. before the send, the placement was tested, and its a go.

[Cobra_Commander]

Fixed pins suck. They rust, weaken over time, break or rip when fallen on, fall out when subject to freeze-thaw, and/or scar cracks.

 

beacon beacon beacon beacon (sorry I'm just luring JosephH in here for some fireworks)

[ivan]

Fixed pins suck. They rust, weaken over time, break or rip when fallen on, fall out when subject to freeze-thaw, and/or scar cracks.

i'll bite - seems to depend on the rock type - they are every bit as good as bolts on beacon rock style basalt coluomnar cracks

[Peter_Puget]

Are you saying that a KB (or Bug or angle) in a vertical crack will remain over many years every bit as good as a 10mm (or 12mm) SS bolt placed nearby at Beacon?

[Ishmael]

Fixed pins suck. They rust, weaken over time, break or rip when fallen on, fall out when subject to freeze-thaw, and/or scar cracks.

 

I agree... Impossible to inspect. And people complain about 1/4 inch bolts being time bombs...

[ivan]

Are you saying that a KB (or Bug or angle) in a vertical crack will remain over many years every bit as good as a 10mm (or 12mm) SS bolt placed nearby at Beacon?

the old pins there are just as trustworthy as the old bolts - nothing's better than a modern (good) bolt placement though of course

[Peter_Puget]

Ivan...I am still unclear what you are saying. You state that a bolt is better than a pin when they are both new. You seem to be saying that 10 years later the pin would somehow be just as "trustworthy" or "every bit as good" as the bolt. Doesn't this imply that at beacon a 12mm SS bolt will degrade at a much faster rate than a KB or Bug placed nearby.

[ivan]

what i meant was, given the state of the art of bolts back a couple decades ago, a well placed pin at beacon was as good as a bolt (and certainly more aesthetic) - standard bolts are now much larger and seem to have much more gnarly hangers, so yeah, i'm sure they age better (but they'll still look gay if they're close to a crack)

 

 

[ivan]

Fixed pins suck. They rust, weaken over time, break or rip when fallen on, fall out when subject to freeze-thaw, and/or scar cracks.

 

I agree... Impossible to inspect. And people complain about 1/4 inch bolts being time bombs...

to my experience (again on columnar basalt), a bad pin is very easy to diagnose - i've removed 3 this past year by hand, 2 with no more force than it takes to pull a card out of a deck.

 

maybe my faith in beacon pins is i spend so much time yarding on and abusing them?

[John Frieh]

what i meant was, given the state of the art of bolts back a couple decades ago, a well placed pin at beacon was as good as a bolt (and certainly more aesthetic) - standard bolts are now much larger and seem to have much more gnarly hangers, so yeah, i'm sure they age better (but they'll still look gay if they're close to a crack)

 

But if beacon had any more bolts it might lose its status as "best climbing area in the world"

[JosephH]

Are you saying that a KB (or Bug or angle) in a vertical crack will remain over many years every bit as good as a 10mm (or 12mm) SS bolt placed nearby at Beacon?

 

Having replaced 64 anchor sets and checked, reset, and / or replaced most of the pins at Beacon I can categorically state the pins far and away out performed the [non-stainless] bolts there - by an overwhelming margin. One or both bolts were bad and / or spinners in 52 of the 64 anchor sets whereas only 1/4 of the pins needed to be reset and another 1/8 needed to be replaced. Oddly, the bolts from the 90's were in the worst shape. Most all the pins of all ages back to the 60's were bomb.

 

But as Ivan said, YMMV by rock type and locale - in Beacon basalt the pins more or less permanently weld. That said, as far as I concerned [at Beacon], the only pins appropriate for fixing are medium and long Lost Arrows, Bugaboos, and Hard / Soft Euro pins. 99 times out of 100 pro fits where Angles were located, Knifeblades are too thin, and short version of any of the pins are just not robust enough to withstand both falls and environmental conditions over time.

 

Personally, I'm guessing stainless only buys bolts parity or a slight improvement over the above-sized pins [at Beacon]. But what I learned having done that work over three years is that I'd rather clip a pin over a bolt any day of the week. Also, it's important to note that what fixed pins and bolts have in common is they both need to be actively maintained over time. Any assertion to the contrary is misguided and a misunderstanding of the nature of fixed pro in general. Bolts and pins both need to be checked at least every ten years and better every five years.

[ivan]

 

But if beacon had any more bolts it might lose its status as "best climbing area in the world"

nah - beacon's hardly that - merely "the best climbing area w/n a reasonable drive from house"

[pope]

Agreed. In fact I completely admire the enthusiasm that many of you are able to generate for Beacon Rock climbing. Based on only one visit, I'm glad it's not in my backyard.

 

It's encouraging to see all of the closet traditionalists defending the Castille. Yes, Damnation is slightly harder to protect than Classic Crack and we like it that way.

[PhöQ]

Mark...

 

Am I being a pussy again?

Any thoughts?

 

Do us a favor and don't think...just climb.

[markwebster]

so the votes are in, by a landslide: no fixed pin on damnation.

 

I think I'll still carry a knifeblade up there the next time I climb it. No hammer though, and I won't fix it...just slip it in with as much force as a wired stopper. I may also buy a number 3 bigbro.

 

I'm famous for carrying an el cap rack everywhere I go. Guess I'm just a born pussy and need more pro than normal people. Probably if I boned up on chimney climbing I'd be more comfortable there and wouldn't even think about it. Clean chimney climbs are kind of hard to find.

 

Some of my favorites are the watershute in jt...and I almost got up to easter overhang on midnight this year. I remember that being an awesome chimney. You get those elbow locks and swing your lower body out into space.