Obama IS a socialist

[STP]

 

 

"But...but...but...Ronnie and Maggie along with Pope John Paul led the Crusade against the former Soviet Union, Maggie by flooding the oil markets with North Sea crude and Ronnie by accelerating the Arms Race."

 

[akhalteke]

Been there, done that.

 

Coast Guard boot camp and 3 months duty doesn't count you know.

 

That whole being in the military thing is more difficult than it seems. I figure anyone who can take more than 2 years (my max tolerance) may be pretty bad-assed.

 

 

Putting up with the bullshit in the military is the tough part. Physically, it doesn't even register on the difficulty scale as compared to some of the other activities that came later.

 

One thing the military's real good at is promoting the habit of unwarranted chest beating.

So what, praytell did you do in the military Tvash? Dying to know. Where were you deployed to? What unit where you in? What rank did you enter/leave with?

[Skeezix]

I'll bite. When I left the Army in 1979, I was an E-4 11-Charlie Indirect Fire Crewman on special duty assignment as a ski instructor at the Armed Forces Recreation Center in Garmisch, Germany. Our motto was "We ski to keep America free."

[akhalteke]

I was refering to Mr. Tvash. But good on ya. Honorable profession. I was an 11 Bang Bang when I enlisted. Pretty much the sam ething but you get bigger gats.

[Bug]

Ak, you are getting wrapped up in a small fraction of the gist of this thread. The arguement is not whether or not YOU are a competent soldier (correct me if I am wrong Tvash). It is about the proper or improper application of military force.

Regardless of whether or not Saddam was a bad man, invading a sovereign state without provocation is illegal.

 

President George Bush broke with what most of the rest of the free world considers a fundamental building block for global peace.

What's more, there are better ways to get rid of a dictator. Undermining the hard fought infrastructure of the intelligence community the way Cheney did (and GW backed him up 110%) was Treason. I am sure that is why Cheney now has a new home in Dubai. My guess is he will reside there until he dies. May it be a long and painful death. Bone Cancer perhaps. Or something undignified like bowel twitches.

 

[akhalteke]

Well. Mr. Chestbeater thinks he is a hard ass and that military life was easy. I just wanna see what exactly he did in the military and why he didn't do anything more challenging when given the chance... Fair question Bug.

[prole]

Check your identity at the door, get told where and when to eat, sleep, shit, live, work. Get fed, fucked, and told what to think. Just like prison. That's everybody. For some there is a certain amount of personal courage involved. You may even fit the bill. Regardless, you and the rest of the military class are suckling at the teat of the biggest welfare scam in human history.

[Bug]

Regardless, you and the rest of the military class are suckling at the teat of the biggest welfare scam in human history.

I am not particularly enamoured of military solutions but if we, the US, did not have a strong military the world would be way worse off than it is now.

The current administration has forsaken diplomacy and uses the military like a school yard bully. This is wrong.

But to disrespect those who have joined the military for the nessessary defense of our country and it's national security is just as wrong.

[prole]

nessessary defense of our country and it's national security is just as wrong.

 

This hasn't been the case since the War of 1812.

[Bug]

nessessary defense of our country and it's national security is just as wrong.

 

This hasn't been the case since the War of 1812.

 

So you are for completely dissolving the US military?

[prole]

I'm for a complete reevaluation and reorientation of the terms you just used: national defense and security. The opportunity to do so has been present a number of times in US history and was present most recently during and immediately following the dissolution of the Soviet Union. In each and every instance, American elites have opted for an expansionist, imperialist, and thoroughly self-serving armed forces. I'm not a pacifist, I think armed struggle has been and can be a necessary means to achieve a positive outcome. I just don't think the military as it's presently oriented meets any of legitimate claims for "defense" or "security" for Americans or the rest of the world.

[tvashtarkatena]

Check your identity at the door, get told where and when to eat, sleep, shit, live, work. Get fed, fucked, and told what to think. Just like prison. That's everybody. For some there is a certain amount of personal courage involved. You may even fit the bill. Regardless, you and the rest of the military class are suckling at the teat of the biggest welfare scam in human history.

 

I don't remember checking my identity at the door, but as for being told what to do, that's true. I also don't remember being told what to think. I'd say the people I knew in the military ranked among the top free thinkers I've ever known. If it was a prison, it was a voluntary one. Sure, there were some chest beaters crying for the attention Daddy never gave them, like our friend AKA here, but there were far more talented, intelligent, and diverse individuals, at least where I was.

 

There is a need for a military, just as there is a need for police; the darker side of human nature warrants it. Just not as big and expensive as the currently unaffordable version we've got today. It's eating us alive.

 

As for being a welfare program, the military certainly is that, but that's not all bad. As in the case of my family, it's can be an effective gateway out of poverty, as well as a way to constructively socialize troubled individuals. In a society full of excuses, I'd say the 'no excuse' philosophy pushed during my military experience was a breath of fresh air. I only wish our commander in chief and his cronies adhered to it.

[Bug]

To argue with that would be picking nits.

I am just not on board with personally dissing the people who serve.

While some are clearly dorks, the reason(s) most serve is honorable.

AK makes some statements here that I strongly disagree with but I will not dis him for being in the military. Especially while he is in a combat zone or about to enter one.

 

I am not saying that you do attack AK for being a soldier. Just that your posts could be perceived as such. Sorry if I misunderstood.

[pc313]

8 years of fuzzy math!!!!

[prole]

The US military is a bloated, self-perpetuating, imperial money hole. I do believe that many of the people who decide to serve in it, do so for honorable reasons. That I also think they are largely misguided in their understanding the logic and motives of American power in the world has been for the last 100+ years is not necessarily dissing them.

I would question the idea that joining the military is somehow a "harder" choice than living in the civilian world. Many do so as Tvash suggests, to escape poverty, drugs, crime, the uncertainties of the civilian labor market (whoops, all these exist in the military). That people can have positive experiences relative to what they can expect from civilian life is not in doubt, but the fact that people have to join an institution that dehumanizes themselves and others, requires them to kill and be killed, to invade and occupy in order to either escape the conditions in their daily civilian lives or live an honorable existence represents a gross miscalculation of priorities and resources. If you want to serve your country, go work in a homeless shelter, not Iraq.

[JosephH]

The roots of the crisis extend back as far as our 'strategy' for outspending the Russians while not inconveniencing the middle class. Reagan and Bush Sr. were largely responsible for the run up to this crisis. W's people just put it into hyperdrive to cover the true economic impact of the Iraq war...

 

[Fairweather]

 

Do I hear $90,000? $50,000 anyone? Do I hear $38,000! Going once...

[dougd]

We're fortunate there are folks willing to serve in our military. Especially these days with a republican administration that misuses them in wars of choice such as iraq is, then mismanages said war and soldiers' care as they return, damaged from the experience.

 

I prefer not to make judgements about why these young americans serve in this way.

 

It takes a special sense of duty to serve honorably during such times as these and I am very thankful they do.

 

AND it is time to bring them all home from iraq and take good care of them.

 

d

 

 

[akhalteke]

Check your identity at the door, get told where and when to eat, sleep, shit, live, work. Get fed, fucked, and told what to think. Just like prison. That's everybody. For some there is a certain amount of personal courage involved. You may even fit the bill. Regardless, you and the rest of the military class are suckling at the teat of the biggest welfare scam in human history.

 

It is quite clear that you have never been in the military.

[akhalteke]

Oh and Tvash. Still waiting to hear your unit and your date of service. Or is this another one of your enormous collection of lies. You do know that is is illegal to impersonate a soldier/ feign service right? So lets hear it. Or are you one of those crazy black ops guys I hear so much about?

[billcoe]

We're fortunate there are folks willing to serve in our military. Especially these days with a republican administration that misuses them in wars of choice such as iraq is, then mismanages said war and soldiers' care as they return, damaged from the experience. I prefer not to make judgements about why these young americans serve in this way.

 

It takes a special sense of duty to serve honorably during such times as these and I am very thankful they do. AND it is time to bring them all home from iraq and take good care of them.

 

d

 

Glad someone said it Doug. It seems to me that today's little pissing match in Iraq may be tomorrows death struggle on the other side of the world with a large bear or worse. The dudes in Iraq will be the same ones moved over there, against the bear or Asian Hordes, saving your ass, and your loved ones asses, and your way of life so that you can flap your lips with out recourse any way you want here on this site Prole. If you want to dispatch rancor on this war, I can see it and understand it, however, today isn't tomorrow, and kicking those in the crotch who may need to be standing between you and some future unimaginable personal horror seems silly, wrong and counterproductive to me.

 

Think it over.

 

Take care all

 

[pc313]

[pc313]

[prole]

We're fortunate there are folks willing to serve in our military. Especially these days with a republican administration that misuses them in wars of choice such as iraq is, then mismanages said war and soldiers' care as they return, damaged from the experience. I prefer not to make judgements about why these young americans serve in this way.

 

It takes a special sense of duty to serve honorably during such times as these and I am very thankful they do. AND it is time to bring them all home from iraq and take good care of them.

 

d

 

Glad someone said it Doug. It seems to me that today's little pissing match in Iraq may be tomorrows death struggle on the other side of the world with a large bear or worse. The dudes in Iraq will be the same ones moved over there, against the bear or Asian Hordes, saving your ass, and your loved ones asses, and your way of life so that you can flap your lips with out recourse any way you want here on this site Prole. If you want to dispatch rancor on this war, I can see it and understand it, however, today isn't tomorrow, and kicking those in the crotch who may need to be standing between you and some future unimaginable personal horror seems silly, wrong and counterproductive to me.

 

Think it over.

 

Take care all

 

 

Considering that the American funding of the Afghan mujahudeen, Saddam Hussein, the blind ideological and material support for the State of Israel, economic shock therapy and support for a "strong man" in the former Soviet Union, unwillingness to deal diplomatically with N. Korea, the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and implementation of structural adjustment programs leading to deeper inequalities and grievances throughout the world have done more to facilitate a "future unimaginable personal horror" than any other external actor on the world stage, I'd have to say that you're full of horseshit. I've already made my feelings on "supporting the troops" crystal clear on this board: as individuals, they don't get a free pass. They are fully capable of accessing the same "intelligence" that civilians are and are free to find work accordingly. If they've been paying attention to the news since 2003, then they ought to know that "defense", "security", "honor", and the rest don't mean shit when it comes to Iraq. They're misplaced abstractions. As far as tomorrow's wars go, they've got more balls than brains if they're buying into the same old tired slogans that got them where they are now. "Asian hordes"? "The Bear"? Shame on you.

[akhalteke]

 

Uh... Duh. Ever heard of welfare? Oh. I thought that was a Democratic item. Huh.