Bug Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 "Obama will give 95% of American working families a tax cut, even though 40% of Americans today don't pay income taxes ...How can he 'cut' zero?...A 'refundable tax credit'... involves the federal government taking money from those who do pay taxes, and writing checks to those who don't. Yes, yes, in the real world this is known as 'welfare'." Guess again. Look at your W4. See the Tax withheld? Right now, even if that is zero, the other box FICA has a dollar amount in it that was taken from you by the government. That would be given back by the Obama plan. So it is not taking from one person and giving to another. It is taking from one person and giving it back to that same person. See the whole idea from "the liberal side" is that you can't have a healthy economy without having a healthy middle class to buy things. The whole idea from "the Republican side" is that you need to give huge corporations lots of money in tax breaks so their stock holders can invest in other companies and keep the whole investment thing going while cutting jobs, wages, and benefits so that the stockholders can profit more and invest more. As we have seen in the last several months, this Republican plan falls on its face when the balance is lost and there is no longer enough money in the middle class to buy or continue paying for the products the stockholders' companies need to sell. That is the flaw in pure supply-side economics. As in your example it "involves the federal government taking money from those who do pay taxes (middle class in the last eight years), and writing checks to those who don't (Big oil, AIG, Goldman Sachs, etc). Yes, yes, in the real world this is known as 'welfare'." Corporate welfare would be a better term in your world. We had a republican president and a congress dominated by republicans for 6 years and then split evenly for two. The republicans had their pipe dream and at the end of it we are all going through the biggest financial crisis since 1929. And I might add, the republicans are still in control of the presidency and have a 49-51 split in congress. They control the Treasury, the FDIC, the Justice dept and the SEC. But you don't want to change that? What would it take for you to be willing to change course? Do we all have to be eating out of the gutter? My God man. Wake up. Quote
akhalteke Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 The greatest British climbers of all time, the futuristic old-school alpinists whose Himalayan routes many of you won't even see in your lifetimes, were welfare queens. That's right, "the dole" gave these "parasites" something for you wage-slaves to aspire to. Have fun in the cube today... Futuristic old school? Hmm. Welfare queens? Hmm. Wage slave? hmm. Aspire to them? hmmm. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 (edited) "Obama will give 95% of American working families a tax cut, even though 40% of Americans today don't pay income taxes ...How can he 'cut' zero?...A 'refundable tax credit'... involves the federal government taking money from those who do pay taxes, and writing checks to those who don't. Yes, yes, in the real world this is known as 'welfare'." Hey, wanna know something inneresting? 40% of Americans are either under 18 or over 65 years of age. Amazing coincidence! Mixing statistics ('working households' and 'Americans'): political rhetorical trick number 1. There's also a reason Americans making under 45K don't pay much in taxes; you can barely survive on that amount. Fairness does not mean everyone pays the same % of America's tax burden, or gets the appropriate amount back in govt services; fairness means that this country provides an opportunity for people to avoid and/or lift themselves from poverty towards a secure future. That's what makes a healthy, just society. Last time a drove through Medina, it didn't seem like the rich needed a whole lot of help, unless it was for mowing their acre sized lawns or parking their fleet of cars. Oh, and BTW, the 'welfare queen' myth was invented during the Reagan era. She doesn't exist in any numbers. It was dispelled a long, long time ago. In addition, as 'welfare' constitutes about 1% of the federal budget, it's really not much of an issue. Eliminating Scott and his fellow soldiers' jobs; at 60% of the budget, would probably be a better place to start. Edited October 30, 2008 by tvashtarkatena Quote
mattp Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 (edited) I thas taken me several google searches to figure out the actual proposals we have been talking about, and these are twofold: Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families: Obama and Biden will restore fairness to the tax code and provide 150 million workers the tax relief they need. Obama and Biden will create a new "Making Work Pay" tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family. The "Making Work Pay" tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans. Enact a Windfall Profits Tax to Provide a $1,000 Emergency Energy Rebate to American Families:Barack Obama and Joe Biden will enact a windfall profits tax on excessive oil company profits to give American families an immediate $1,000 emergency energy rebate to help families pay rising bills. This relief would be a down payment on the Obama-Biden long-term plan to provide middle-class families with at least $1,000 per year in permanent tax relief. So there is, in the second proposal, something Scott and Farweather can call welfare. However, even though the last sentence in that paragraph links it to "tax relief," it is a proposed energy "rebate" funded by a proposed taxes on oil companies. This is not a tax rebate in any sense of the term. Under the first proposal, this makes it appear that nobody gets any tax credit unless they actually paid taxes, and I've seen this specifically stated in several discussions of Obama's proposal. However, elsewhere, I've seen it said to be a "refundable" tax credit. Bottom line: at this point I'm not sure whether there could actually be a proposal that has potential to result in somebody getting a tax rebate when they didn't pay income taxes but only paid payroll taxes. Either way, the Republican blog attacks have been misleading and the posters here repeat them without concern for that. Edited October 30, 2008 by mattp Quote
akhalteke Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 "Obama will give 95% of American working families a tax cut, even though 40% of Americans today don't pay income taxes ...How can he 'cut' zero?...A 'refundable tax credit'... involves the federal government taking money from those who do pay taxes, and writing checks to those who don't. Yes, yes, in the real world this is known as 'welfare'." Hey, wanna know something inneresting? 40% of Americans are either under 18 or over 65 years of age. Amazing coincidence! Mixing statistics ('working households' and 'Americans'): political rhetorical trick number 1. There's also a reason Americans making under 45K don't pay much in taxes; you can barely survive on that amount. Fairness does not mean everyone pays the same % of America's tax burden, or gets the appropriate amount back in govt services; fairness means that this country provides an opportunity for people to avoid and/or lift themselves from poverty towards a secure future. That's what makes a healthy, just society. Last time a drove through Medina, it didn't seem like the rich needed a whole lot of help, unless it was for mowing their acre sized lawns or parking their fleet of cars. Oh, and BTW, the 'welfare queen' myth was invented during the Reagan era. She doesn't exist in any numbers. It was dispelled a long, long time ago. In addition, as 'welfare' constitutes about 1% of the federal budget, it's really not much of an issue. Eliminating Scott and his fellow soldiers' jobs; at 60% of the budget, would probably be a better place to start. I look forward to living off of your (purportedly) rich ass while I cash in my food stamps and welfare checks that are more valuable than my base pay. Hasta kiddo. Off to the range. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 I look forward to paying for your living rather than wasting our national treasure for your uniformed adventures. At least I won't be footing the bill for all those expensive toys you guys trash. Quote
akhalteke Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 I look forward to paying for your living rather than wasting our national treasure for your uniformed adventures. At least I won't be footing the bill for all those expensive toys you guys trash. Trash? WTF are you talking about? Adventures? LOL You need some first hand experience; I can set you up with a recruiter if you want. I really, honestly dont think you could hack it. Seriously. Quote
marylou Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 I'm a little flummoxed over this 45k no taxes thing. Most years I make about that much, and I definitely pay taxes. Quote
billcoe Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 Been there, done that. Coast Guard boot camp and 3 months duty doesn't count you know. That whole being in the military thing is more difficult than it seems. I figure anyone who can take more than 2 years (my max tolerance) may be pretty bad-assed. Quote
mattp Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 I'm a little flummoxed over this 45k no taxes thing. Most years I make about that much, and I definitely pay taxes. Yup. I wondered about that too. Could this be another distortion used for political argument? Example: single person, no kids, $40,000.00 income: Estimated Tax Analysis Gross income $40,000 Qualified plan contributions - $0 Adjusted gross income = $40,000 Standard/Itemized deductions - $5,450 1 Personal exemption - $3,500 Taxable income = $31,050 Tax liability before credits $4,256 Child tax credits - $0 Estimated tax liability = $4,256 This is on top of what we've been calling "payroll taxes." Quote
prole Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 That whole being in the military thing is more difficult than it seems. I figure anyone who can take more than 2 years (my max tolerance) may be pretty bad-assed. Yeah, having to get permission to take a shit is real "bad-ass". Grow up. Quote
marylou Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 I'm a little flummoxed over this 45k no taxes thing. Most years I make about that much, and I definitely pay taxes. Yup. I wondered about that too. Could this be another distortion used for political argument? Yep, that looks about right. I make more than that, but the amount over 40K is going into my 201k. I don't know why FW and others think people in the lower middle tax brackets don't pay taxes, because we definitely do. Quote
Bug Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 Because his ignorance knows no bounds. Tax Table Quote
mattp Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 Single person, $20,000.00 a year: Estimated Tax Analysis Gross income $20,000 Qualified plan contributions - $0 Adjusted gross income = $20,000 Standard/Itemized deductions - $5,450 Personal exemptions - $3,500 Taxable income = $11,050 Tax liability before credits $1,256 Child tax credits - $0 Estimated tax liability = $1,256 federal income tax calculator site Quote
eric8 Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 I'm a little flummoxed over this 45k no taxes thing. Most years I make about that much, and I definitely pay taxes. Yup. I wondered about that too. Could this be another distortion used for political argument? Example: single person, no kids, $40,000.00 income: Estimated Tax Analysis Gross income $40,000 Qualified plan contributions - $0 Adjusted gross income = $40,000 Standard/Itemized deductions - $5,450 1 Personal exemption - $3,500 Taxable income = $31,050 Tax liability before credits $4,256 Child tax credits - $0 Estimated tax liability = $4,256 This is on top of what we've been calling "payroll taxes." This is also my 1040. No cut from McCain because I don't have a kid. 500$ from Obama's plan. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted October 31, 2008 Posted October 31, 2008 Been there, done that. Coast Guard boot camp and 3 months duty doesn't count you know. That whole being in the military thing is more difficult than it seems. I figure anyone who can take more than 2 years (my max tolerance) may be pretty bad-assed. Putting up with the bullshit in the military is the tough part. Physically, it doesn't even register on the difficulty scale as compared to some of the other activities that came later. One thing the military's real good at is promoting the habit of unwarranted chest beating. Quote
JosephH Posted October 31, 2008 Posted October 31, 2008 Obama and Biden could get two terms and over the course of eight years of them in power you'd never see an example of the explicit [two trillion dollar] socialism directed to the wealthy, upper, and middle class that the Republicans have just engaged in. Republicans - Capitalists on the way up, Socialists on the way down, and hypocrites in either direction. Quote
STP Posted October 31, 2008 Posted October 31, 2008 I just wonder if we can rightly place a large part of the blame for this global economic crisis squarely on the Republicans. Why is Europe in a similar mess? Seems it's more a function of extending credit without proper oversight and the resultant formation of a bubble. Europe's looming crisis BALTIC DRY INDEX `Biggest Bubble of Them All' Is Globalization: Chart of the Day Where were you during the Battle in Seattle? [video:youtube]ZBOq8XWS798 Quote
prole Posted October 31, 2008 Posted October 31, 2008 I just wonder if we can rightly place a large part of the blame for this global economic crisis squarely on the Republicans. Why is Europe in a similar mess? Seems it's more a function of extending credit without proper oversight and the resultant formation of a bubble. Europe's looming crisis BALTIC DRY INDEX `Biggest Bubble of Them All' Is Globalization: Chart of the Day Where were you during the Battle in Seattle? You can lay blame at the feet of the Republican party to the extent that the bundle of "reforms" packaged under neoliberalism: privatization, deregulation, gutting of social services, etc. were originally designed and implemented and practiced most rabidly under conservative rule. These ideas and policy prescriptions became hegemonic among global elites and began to be implemented (consensually (by elites) in advanced countries, by force in the developing/"Third" world). The Democrats were right on board in America as was Labor in England and Liberals in Europe (with minor or mild objections). As you suggest, this was a fundamental part of "globalization". That being said, if you're looking for historical scapegoats, you need look no further than these two, who were until a few weeks ago the subject of near-cultlike adoration in American political culture: Guess the ink wasn't quite dry on that one, huh Jay? Quote
prole Posted October 31, 2008 Posted October 31, 2008 Where were you during the Battle in Seattle? Locking down 4th and Pine with a couple thousand very awesome people. Quote
marylou Posted October 31, 2008 Posted October 31, 2008 Me too. Me and 56,000 of my closest friends. Quote
dougd Posted October 31, 2008 Posted October 31, 2008 Been there, done that. Coast Guard boot camp and 3 months duty doesn't count you know. That whole being in the military thing is more difficult than it seems. I figure anyone who can take more than 2 years (my max tolerance) may be pretty bad-assed. Putting up with the bullshit in the military is the tough part. Physically, it doesn't even register on the difficulty scale as compared to some of the other activities that came later. One thing the military's real good at is promoting the habit of unwarranted chest beating. I dunno TV, point well taken but, USMC was physically and mentally tough... Yes, there was a lot of chest beating (it's all unwarranted IMO), and the requisite "bullshit" (the Marines set records for this one) to put up with of course, but the training was very demanding. The experience helped me in life, and climbing too... d Quote
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