Just climb: sane or insane?

[mattp]

Yesterday, I took a cc.com poster to Index for his first rock climbing outing and after we were through I told him: a day or two of further instruction and some time spent fooling with the gear and I’d say you could take on moderate rock climbs with a reasonable margin of safety. Nuts or not?

 

Some folks like to practice and study to death these days and others prefer to just do it. My new friend has been heading into the mountains on his own, with companions that have little experience, and he’s been able to do some pretty good climbs including Sahale Peak. He and his pal read Freedom of the Hills and then taught themselves how to do self arrest, practicing it forwards and backward, and they’ve been doing some moderate snow climbs but have avoided glacier travel because they recognize their lack of experience.

 

This guy’s read Freedom of the Hills and John Long about rock climbing and without any instruction from me he knew how to jam and what was needed for a good belay anchor. He nearly got one of my cams stuck but was it his fault or mine - placing an expensive gizmo in a location where it could get over-cammed if not taken out just right? He’s been practicing his knots and knew the figure eight, double fisherman, how to properly coil a rope. He’s been bouldering at UW rock a fair bit.

 

Yesterday, we climbed two routes in the Great Northern Slab area, and I opted for routes that I could have solo’d because my partner had never belayed before and I didn’t want to take the time to practice belaying sufficiently that I’d have real confidence in his belay – and just how much confidence should I have in a first-time belayer anyway? But he handled the rope just fine as far as I could tell, and he completed two rappels without any problem (I belayed him as he rapped on a single line and then I tied the two ropes together to rappel as I normally would).

 

He’s going to take a rock climbing seminar at the end of the month, and I don't know the curriculum but I bet they'll teach him how to escape the belay and practice "building an anchor" and I hope they'll spend some time on gear placement. I told him that after that he’ll probably be fairly well-prepared to take on some easy climbs. I warned that learning what constituted a solid placement of gear, how to deal with loose rock, and routefinding are more advanced skills that one only learns with experience and he should seek opportunities to climb with more experienced climbers rather than team up with his inexperienced friends at first, but can’t somebody with basic common sense and a minimal foundation go out and enjoy the hills?

 

In my years of climbing I have not observed that those who slowly progress through a structured climbing curriculum come out of it showing any clearly greater margin of safety or good judgment than those who are motivated to seek out opportunities to climb with more experienced climbers and study up and practice on their own.

 

[Rad]

Matt,

 

..can’t somebody with basic common sense and a minimal foundation go out and enjoy the hills?

 

Absolutely! There is no certification required to play outside.

 

That said, different people learn in different ways. Some learn best by reading, others by watching, others by doing etc. Moreover, people will have different comfort zones that determine how fast they are willing to push their own boundaries.

 

Each must find his/her own way with a little help from their friends.

 

Glad to see you're getting out on the rock again.

 

Rad

[tomtom]

In my years of climbing I have not observed that those who slowly progress through a structured climbing curriculum come out of it showing any clearly greater margin of safety or good judgment than those who are motivated to seek out opportunities to climb with more experienced climbers and study up and practice on their own.

 

My experience with structured climbing curriculums suggests that your highly motivated student will succeed with just about any learning process.

[Clarence]

I think you're right Matt. In my own experience, structured climbing classes are not that great. I have been sport climbing and scrambling for several years (shown the ropes by an experience friend), and this year I wanted to get into more alpine climbing, especially glacier, but also alpine rock. I took the Mounties basic climbing class for the glacier skills and was very underwhelmed. Certainly, there were nuggets of knowlege that were useful, but by in large they told me nothing that I hadn't already read, plus I had to suffer through two months of (re)learning how to belay...

A class like the basic climbing class might have more to offer someone who has never belayed or climbed before, but with a decent amount of general outdoor experience, some time spent reading (FOTH and John Long's Anchors book) and the willingness to get out and try things one should be in a good position to act safe.

That's the approach I've taken to learning to trad lead this summer. I'm going out and learning on my own after carefull reading and some practice placements on the ground. The funny thing is, the last rock climb I went on with the mounties kinda scared me. I could place gear better than the leader after only one or two trad leads of my own... Good thing we were climbing stuff that I would consider soloing.

[mattp]

I didn't mean to sound as if I'm down on structured learning, but I just seem to hear a lot of folks suggest it is irresponsible to go out climbing without more formal instruction, and once a week we read about how it is absolutely essential that every rock climber practices how to escape the belay or whatever before they ever consider leaving the ground.

 

We also see folks complaining that this or that curriculum was inadequate or so and so was an irresponsible party leader because "what if something had gone wrong." In my own case, I'm pretty sure some folks around here would say I was irresponsible to take an inexperienced climber on a multipitch climb, and to lead technical rock, without a qualified belayer.

[Clarence]

I'm not trying to say that structured learning is all bad. I was trying to illustrate that from my experience you can be safe without it. It really just comes down to your personal learning style and comfort level. I don't think that one approach is inherently better than the other.

[builder206]

My improvement rate has increased since I stopped climbing with Mounties, and my ability horizon has expanded since I started climbing with people who came up in other ways. I see no difference in safety among the two groups.

 

Common sense and situational awareness generally seems better among non-Mounties. However, this is individualistic and I see both extremes represented by specific persons from both backgrounds.

 

With 20/20 hindsight I conclude that I very much over-valued Mounties training. It's nothing special. The worst thing about it is the herd instinct it inadvertently encourages with each tier of experience trusting the next higher tier with its well-being.

[Bug]

Every climber is responsible for themselves.

That is the first thing I try to get people to understand.

Good belays are part of not ending up having to descend by yourself. Teamwork is essential. Trusting someone else with your life is not a good idea. You have to read, listen, experiment in a safe environment and branch out as you feel competent.

Regardless of where you learn, you have to keep your own responsibilities in the fore.

[counterfeitfake]

I've got no problem with your suggestion.

 

I think the most important element in being safe is a REAL understanding of the gear you use and the situations you can find yourself in. A formal organized class could prepare you with the real comprehension and flexible thinking it takes to be ready to go out on your own, or it could instill in you a belief that rote memorization equals safety. I don't think individualized learning is different.

 

Whatever your style, approach your limits, but approach them cautiously.

[tomtom]

... but can’t somebody with basic common sense and a minimal foundation go out and enjoy the hills?

 

Formal and informal training will never prevent all accidents, but sometimes you read accident reports and wonder "What if ... ?"

 

http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/580523

[RuMR]

mounties have a large proportion of "whoopsies", imo

[Braydon]

sounds kinda like how i learned how to climb...study it, practice it, study it some more, have someone evaluate it, and the best part - go out in the mountains and do it!

[Peakpimp]

I just want to give a BIG thanks to Mattp for taking me out to climb yesterday, it was amazing and I can't wait for an opportunity to do it again.

 

I feel that some solid 1 on 1 instruction from a competent practitioner is a great way to learn a new skill although as a student I think it is important to do as much of the research as possible before setting out, especially on something that is inherently dangerous. With all of the resources currently available in books, magazines, websites etc, there's no reason why someone couldn't know quite a bit before even attempting the activity. Hell I spent 2 hours re-reading FotH just before Matt showed up. For me I think it's just important to stay humble, and carefully put into practice the knowledge I can acquire from all available resources to execute sound judgment in a variety of circumstances.

 

Thanks again Matt!

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I think you're right Matt. In my own experience, structured climbing classes are not that great. I have been sport climbing and scrambling for several years (shown the ropes by an experience friend), and this year I wanted to get into more alpine climbing, especially glacier, but also alpine rock.

 

Well, that's the problem. Group climbing classes assume a lowest common denominator of zero. The more you've been out before taking a class like that, the less you're going to get from it.

 

Sounds like all you needed was to get out on some glacier routes with people. There is a debate on practicing rescue - I think it's useful (e.g. z-pulley), but there are glacier climbs you can do with a low risk factor without that.

 

A Basic class is nothing more than that "basic". The climbing clubs I am aware of have basic classes and intermediate classes, but no *advanced* classes. The point is to get bootstrapped so YOU can get started and then where you go from there is up to YOU. Clubs, and classes, are not, or should not be about the totality of you climbing knowledge and experience.

 

Helping newbies is a responsibility I think all climbers should strongly consider participating in - whether it's in a club, class, or just one-on-one mentoring. I would and have taken out newbs on climbs, but I am selective about it. I would not take a newb out on any route, but there are plenty that I would.

 

 

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

My improvement rate has increased since I stopped climbing with Mounties,

 

Uh-huh. Improvement rate from almost zero to ... of course it's a huge jump. Nothing to do with the mounties, but to personal experience and getting out.

 

[Bug]

My improvement rate has increased since I stopped climbing with Mounties,

 

Uh-huh. Improvement rate from almost zero to ... of course it's a huge jump. Nothing to do with the mounties, but to personal experience and getting out.

Personal responsibility is the key component to becoming a competent climber imo.

 

 

[pc313]

ROCKS,ROCKS,ROCKS

[mvs]

I didn't know any cool guys like Matt. Me and another equally clueless friend did the whole John Long/Freedom of the Hills reading thing, and went out and tried it. I'm really happy we could learn that way and there wasn't some kind of license scheme getting in our way. So hell yeah it's sane to learn this way.

 

I've taken some newbies out here in Germany, and find that many people have climbed in a gym, some people have climbed on bolts outside, and NO ONE has climbed with gear outside. People here are paralyzed at the thought of it, and the natural German tendency to take courses really takes over once we start talking about gear climbs. It's too bad, it's like forgotten heritage. There are lots of rusty old pitons on gear climbs that indicate people used to do it! But I rarely see young people on these climbs, mostly 40+ years old. Seems "trad" is dying here.

[catbirdseat]

Michael, I am sorry to hear that about Germany. I am happy to say that trad is alive and well at Tahquitz Rock.

 

My new partner today got all his instruction from friends and partners and his skills were very good. I would have to say that I really haven't yet climbed with anyone from cc.com who I thought was unsafe.

[Bug]

Vell, Vaat do you expect?

You beat us in two world wars, you steal all of our smartest people and build big bomb.

Now ve sit und drink varm beer all day.

 

I can say that.

I am good German stock and have the temper to prove it.

[pc313]

mum,beer!!!!

[RuMR]

Vell, Vaat do you expect?

You beat us in two world wars, you steal all of our smartest people and build big bomb.

Now ve sit und drink varm beer all day.

 

I can say that.

I am good German stock and have the temper to prove it.

krauts have nothing on finnish rage...