More Global Warming Bullshit

[j_b]

Hmm. Lots of passion there. It sounds as though if you read the materials that I linked, you'd be able to translate this set of convictions into concrete statements about the optimal discount rate and, by extension, the optimal carbon-tax schedule.

 

I read your material but discussing the specifics of a carbon tax without considering a new development paradigm that would entail radically reshaping government budgets and subsidy, and the entire taxation scheme (including a ban on doing business with tax heavens) is bound to repeat the same errors. I am not opposed to some kind of carbon tax but it has to be very progressive so that lower incomes that can't afford efficient new technology aren't penalized. Also a carbon tax places true renewables on the same footing as nuclear, which as I have mentioned elsewhere is an important issue as we reconsider our energy production infrastructure.

 

Here is an interesting proposal that addresses reducing carbon emission, saving energy, stimulating the economy and creating loads of jobs: http://climateprogress.org/2008/12/27/architecture-2030-stimulus-green-buildings/#more-4522

 

 

[pc313]

The Tennessee Coal fuck up shows just how clean coal technology is a joke,and the fact the company lied to the locals and the press about the size and water system damage shows their disregaurd for the health and welfare of the human lifes who were exsposed to the hazzards,sorry folks it's all about the money and besides your tax dollars will be spending Billions on the Super fund site cleanup as are lawyers fight your health claims for the next 10 years and when they lose the lawsuits they will appeal and claim Bankruptcy!!!

 

Merry Christmas losers and welcome to "Love Canal" and be thankful its not "Bopol India" or "Chernobyl Russia"!!!

 

The three biggest lies;

 

I wont cum in your mouth!

 

The checks in the mail!

 

We are from the Goverment and here to help you!

 

The Truth is people like Donald Rumsfelt and Ronald Reagan,Bush and Cheney cut the nuts off the D.E.A.,E.P.A.and MPG Car Standers and 55mph speed limets set by the Carter Administration(anyone who thinks you get better gas millage at 70mph is full of shit) By replacing the Heads of these Departments with Drug and Energy Company Yes Men to over rule the safegaurds that were in place or about to be changed to protect us from being fucked over by Big Business Tycoons for a fast buck and leaves us all picking up the tab i.e. Health problems and Environmental Pollution Clean ups!

 

As long as were playing with a stacked deck of cards we the people will lose,but how and where you spend your money is your only control,buying less gas,$4.60gl. now $1.60gl.,not buying the new Drugs,when the older cheaper ones will do,buy only what you need and see China freak out,Most of us don't need a big House or a big Car,SUV(more taxes,upkeep,and energy cost)and demand locally made and grown products even if it cost more,shipping shit all over the world is not helping us but fucking us,your money is power and can change are system more then a vote and Companies are consummer driven so if your not buying their crap they'll get the fucking message!

 

BTW their are lots of companies in the USA making Solar Cell Panels,Solar Water Panels,Inverters,Systems to sell extra power to the grid,Batteries,Gas Hot Water on Demand(tankless),Roof water storage systems for watering your yard,and Heat Pumps so buy USA,More Jobs,Less Waste,Green is a good thing!

[Bug]

The Tennessee Coal fuck up shows just how clean coal technology is a joke,and the fact the company lied to the locals and the press about the size and water system damage shows their disregaurd for the health and welfare of the human lifes who were exsposed to the hazzards,sorry folks it's all about the money and besides your tax dollars will be spending Billions on the Super fund site cleanup as are lawyers fight your health claims for the next 10 years and when they lose the lawsuits they will appeal and claim Bankruptcy!!!

 

Merry Christmas losers and welcome to "Love Canal" and be thankful its not "Bopol India" or "Chernobyl Russia"!!!

 

The three biggest lies;

 

I wont cum in your mouth!

 

The checks in the mail!

 

We are from the Goverment and here to help you!

 

The Truth is people like Donald Rumsfelt and Ronald Reagan,Bush and Cheney cut the nuts off the D.E.A.,E.P.A.and MPG Car Standers and 55mph speed limets set by the Carter Administration(anyone who thinks you get better gas millage at 70mph is full of shit) By replacing the Heads of these Departments with Drug and Energy Company Yes Men to over rule the safegaurds that were in place or about to be changed to protect us from being fucked over by Big Business Tycoons for a fast buck and leaves us all picking up the tab i.e. Health problems and Environmental Pollution Clean ups!

 

As long as were playing with a stacked deck of cards we the people will lose,but how and where you spend your money is your only control,buying less gas,$4.60gl. now $1.60gl.,not buying the new Drugs,when the older cheaper ones will do,buy only what you need and see China freak out,Most of us don't need a big House or a big Car,SUV(more taxes,upkeep,and energy cost)and demand locally made and grown products even if it cost more,shipping shit all over the world is not helping us but fucking us,your money is power and can change are system more then a vote and Companies are consummer driven so if your not buying their crap they'll get the fucking message!

 

BTW their are lots of companies in the USA making Solar Cell Panels,Solar Water Panels,Inverters,Systems to sell extra power to the grid,Batteries,Gas Hot Water on Demand(tankless),Roof water storage systems for watering your yard,and Heat Pumps so buy USA,More Jobs,Less Waste,Green is a good thing!

You are NOT one of Palin's Americans.

[pc313]

You meam Joe the dumber or Todd Sex Pack,Maybe if Todd would stop cheating on her and stick his cock back down her sound hole we wouldn't have to hear her annoying voice! What happens in Alasks should stay in Alaska!

 

But i'm shure her book will be a best seller at the Dollar Palace next to Rush Limbaughs,Donald Rumsfelds,and the all time best selling The Clinton Chronicles!!

 

But in a way Palin and i have lots in common like all average Americans i buy a $150,000,00 in clothes every year and train my kids to drink alcohol,do lots of drugs and have unprotected drunken sex at meth induce snow raves all while i'm talk in tongues and complain about all the un Americans who don't believe that i'm the second comming of Reagan,and are just jealous that everyone loves me and cant get enough of me!

 

Edited December 31, 2008 by pc313

[ivan]

bill, have you not noticed how much hood's glaciers have declined over your lifetime? i've climbed on that mtn for less than a decade and noticed major declines that can't be reversed by just a couple of years of huge snowfalls.

[pc313]

bill, have you not noticed how much hood's glaciers have declined over your lifetime? i've climbed on that mtn for less than a decade and noticed major declines that can't be reversed by just a couple of years of huge snowfalls.

 

I've been hanging around Hood since 76 and like all the other Mountains,i have seen the change in glaciers size,thickness,late summer meltback and Crevasses that were never there before,Three Sisters has lost 40% in the last 100 Years.

 

The only Glacier thats getting bigger is in the St. Helens Crater wall and the Ape Caves collapsed this year,check out the pics at Mt. ST Helens National Park.com!

Edited January 1, 2009 by pc313

[Fairweather]

bill, have you not noticed how much hood's glaciers have declined over your lifetime? i've climbed on that mtn for less than a decade and noticed major declines that can't be reversed by just a couple of years of huge snowfalls.

 

Natural climactic cycles aside, can you think of any non-atmospheric CO2 causes for this?

[pc313]

I'm not worried about are Glaciers getting smaller do to warmer spring,summer and fall,,but do wonder about Ice Land,the North and South Pole Caps. They say if all the sea ice melted it wouldn't make much difference in Sea Levels,but if the big ice caps melt its going to get interesting!

Edited January 5, 2009 by pc313

[tvashtarkatena]

When it comes to Global Warming, getting the science right will be the easy part. Deciding how to respond will involve moving into the realm of conflicting value judgments based on the same evidence, and determining how to allocate scarce resources that have many alternative uses in response to the science will be infinitely harder.

 

 

 

 

Infinitely harder? Gee, that sounds a lot like impossible, no? Have you morphed your pre-Gore argument from 'let's wait until we've got more information' to a post-Gore 'let's wait until we can figure out what to do'? It's no surprise that 'wait', ie, do nothing, is the common theme in all your arguments.

 

JayB & company seems to prefer to remain confused on how humanity should move forward regarding the Global Warming issue, but to me, the process, already massively underway, seems relatively simple; change perception and values and the money, innovation, and lifestyle changes will follow. Where this will take us may not be predictable, and we may fall short along the way, but I really don't see what's so confusing here.

 

Money follows values in this country. Where is the venture capital money going these days? Green technologies. That was completely untrue 3 years ago; venture capitalists hadn't even heard of the technologies they're now ponying up millions for today. Large corporations follow the values of consumers, not the other way around. Car companies are tripping over themselves to produce greener vehicles. Did they come up with the idea?

 

The three Rs, carbon footprint, downsizing; all are examples of effective concepts that are greening the decisions that individuals make every day.

 

Al Gore's movie may have been as flawed as any human creation, but it certainly did the trick in spades; to expose the 'debate' for what is really was; a denial of an accelerating reality. It's interesting to note that the consequences of global warming are coming home to roost much sooner than even the most rabid proponents predicted. So much for 'waiting until we have more information'...another bullshit PR campaign to delay the inevitable for a few more quarters and elections.

 

Finally, with regards to the idea that investment in green technologies with somehow 'bankrupt us', that is absolute, pure bullshit. Such proposed investments, whether public or private, are subject to the same cost/benefit analysis they've always been, so there is no reason to believe that some new mega-project to create a perpetually self-eating watermelon out of unobtainium will come along and destroy our economy (laughable, given that good old unregulated capitalism just imploded without any help from the sci fi writers). This, like pretty much all of the propoganda that has been shoveled our way form the GW denial crowd, is pure fantasy.

Edited January 2, 2009 by tvashtarkatena

[billcoe]

bill, have you not noticed how much hood's glaciers have declined over your lifetime? i've climbed on that mtn for less than a decade and noticed major declines that can't be reversed by just a couple of years of huge snowfalls.

 

No question Ivan. In fact, even avoiding the complexities of approaching it like Jayb suggests, it pisses me off that we haven't even tried to take the baby steps which could and would be all but painless. (for CAFE std reasoning classifying SUV's CARS instead of trucks would be an easy example for instance). I think that we could and should immediately hedge our bets on the off chance it's true. The last president to even look at the future this way was Carter, and that's about as far as we got.

 

Heres hope for the future:

[pc313]

2009 The Green year! Gas should hit $4gl by summer and oil will once agin will drive us to change,i test drove a 72 Road Runner V8 318ci. that had be converted to LP gas in 1980 and it ran just fine,fuck imported oil!

[TREETOAD]

I drove a K5 Blazer on propane for about 6 years. The federal government had $2000 rebates on the istallation costs, which were about $3000 back then. I put around 300,000 kilometers on it. In that time I changed the spark plugs zero times, I replaced the exhaust system zero times. The oil needed changing about every 20,000 k. The downside was a small loss in power climbing hills but not that bad, and also a small loss in kilometers per litre, but the much lower costs negated that issue. Most gas stations here sell auto propane. I once drove to Mexico with it. It was very difficult to find auto propane in the states. I was really surprised about how backward the fuel industry is down there about autopropane. A few people called there friends out to look at the truck that ran on "barbeque gas". I sold the truck about 6 years ago to a local fellow. It had around 350k on it then. He is still driving it.I would say that it was the best money I ever spent on a vehicle.

[Fairweather]

Is LP gas more atmosphere-friendly than gasoline? More efficient? I honestly don't know. It must take a fair amount of energy to compress it initially, and that would have to be factored into the equation too. Anyone?

[MarkMcJizzy]

2009 The Green year! Gas should hit $4gl by summer and oil will once agin will drive us to change,i test drove a 72 Road Runner V8 318ci. that had be converted to LP gas in 1980 and it ran just fine,fuck imported oil!

 

LP gas is a product of oil refining. The LP gas you use is as likely to come from Venezuela, Saudi Arabia or Alaska, as the gallon of gas you use.

[TREETOAD]

I do know the exhaust gasses are much cleaner and it burns cleaner hence the spark plug and exhaust longevity. They use propane to fire motors on forklifts etc used indoors for that reason. I am not sure whether or not the production process is cleaner. We also have lots of natural gas fired autos here and many gas stations have pumps for natural gas. Almost all the taxi cabs here run on propane or are hybrid cars. They drive those for millions of miles.

[pc313]

2009 The Green year! Gas should hit $4gl by summer and oil will once agin will drive us to change,i test drove a 72 Road Runner V8 318ci. that had be converted to LP gas in 1980 and it ran just fine,fuck imported oil!

 

LP gas is a product of oil refining. The LP gas you use is as likely to come from Venezuela, Saudi Arabia or Alaska, as the gallon of gas you use.

 

It also come from Natural Gas and and is the frist gas and easiest to remove from Crude Oil,and Natural Gas,and Natural Gas can be use to run cars in the form of CNG but at a higher pressure some thing like 3,200psi and both can replace refined oil ie Gasoline,Diesel,and Coal in the near future will be reduced with the influx of Solar,Wind,and Ocean wave energy systems,and i'm shure the Coal Industry will raise the bar to the next level.

 

We are not done with Oil but are finding way to reduce the import from 70% down to 25% or less in the next 10 years,are cars don't have to be smaller but lighter,in 1960 the average car had 20 lbs. of Aluminium,in 2008 it was close to 400 lbs per-car,new ways to make lighter,stronger sheets of Aluminium could replace most of the Steel,by blowing in small air bubbles or closed air cells like Foam Insulation is on the fast track and cheaper to make.

 

Back in 1978 the frist digital watch hit the stores at over $200,4 years later i paid $35 with all the bells,in 90 my hard drive was 40MB and with Stacker bumped it to 76MB so we joked about never needing that much,now Ipods can have 200GB cards,so who's to say where we will be with energy in 10 years,i'm still waiting for the flying car we were to have by 2000,or my MT.Climbing Jet Boots,but will be happy with cleaner energy and less imports,GO GREEN and BUY USA!!!!

Edited January 4, 2009 by pc313

[MarkMcJizzy]

2009 The Green year! Gas should hit $4gl by summer and oil will once agin will drive us to change,i test drove a 72 Road Runner V8 318ci. that had be converted to LP gas in 1980 and it ran just fine,fuck imported oil!

 

LP gas is a product of oil refining. The LP gas you use is as likely to come from Venezuela, Saudi Arabia or Alaska, as the gallon of gas you use.

 

It also come from Natural Gas and and is the frist gas and easiest to remove from Crude Oil,and Natural Gas,and Natural Gas can be use to run cars in the form of CNG but at a higher pressure some thing like 3,200psi and both can replace refined oil ie Gasoline,Diesel,and Coal in the near future will be reduced with the influx of Solar,Wind,and Ocean wave energy systems,and i'm shure the Coal Industry will raise the bar to the next level.

 

We are not done with Oil but are finding way to reduce the import from 70% down to 25% or less in the next 10 years,are cars don't have to be smaller but lighter,in 1960 the average car had 20 lbs. of Aluminium,in 2008 it was close to 400 lbs per-car,new ways to make lighter,stronger sheets of Aluminium could replace most of the Steel,by blowing in small air bubbles or closed air cells like Foam Insulation is on the fast track and cheaper to make.

 

Back in 1978 the frist digital watch hit the stores at over $200,4 years later i paid $35 with all the bells,in 90 my hard drive was 40MB and with Stacker bumped it to 76MB so we joked about never needing that much,now Ipods can have 200GB cards,so who's to say where we will be with energy in 10 years,i'm still waiting for the flying car we were to have by 2000,or my MT.Climbing Jet Boots,but will be happy will cleaner energy and less imports,GO GREEN and BUY USA!!!!

 

This is all well and good, and hodge-podge of messy thinking. The fact remains that you were originally speaking of LP gas, which is primarily propane and butane. Both these are largely derived from the refining of crude oil. Lesser amounts can be removed from natural gas. But to think that by using LP gas, one is reducing dependence on imported energy, is wrong.

 

 

[pc313]

2009 The Green year! Gas should hit $4gl by summer and oil will once agin will drive us to change,i test drove a 72 Road Runner V8 318ci. that had be converted to LP gas in 1980 and it ran just fine,fuck imported oil!

 

LP gas is a product of oil refining. The LP gas you use is as likely to come from Venezuela, Saudi Arabia or Alaska, as the gallon of gas you use.

 

It also come from Natural Gas and and is the frist gas and easiest to remove from Crude Oil,and Natural Gas,and Natural Gas can be use to run cars in the form of CNG but at a higher pressure some thing like 3,200psi and both can replace refined oil ie Gasoline,Diesel,and Coal in the near future will be reduced with the influx of Solar,Wind,and Ocean wave energy systems,and i'm shure the Coal Industry will raise the bar to the next level.

 

We are not done with Oil but are finding way to reduce the import from 70% down to 25% or less in the next 10 years,are cars don't have to be smaller but lighter,in 1960 the average car had 20 lbs. of Aluminium,in 2008 it was close to 400 lbs per-car,new ways to make lighter,stronger sheets of Aluminium could replace most of the Steel,by blowing in small air bubbles or closed air cells like Foam Insulation is on the fast track and cheaper to make.

 

Back in 1978 the frist digital watch hit the stores at over $200,4 years later i paid $35 with all the bells,in 90 my hard drive was 40MB and with Stacker bumped it to 76MB so we joked about never needing that much,now Ipods can have 200GB cards,so who's to say where we will be with energy in 10 years,i'm still waiting for the flying car we were to have by 2000,or my MT.Climbing Jet Boots,but will be happy with cleaner energy and less imports,GO GREEN and BUY USA!!!!

 

This is all well and good, and hodge-podge of messy thinking. The fact remains that you were originally speaking of LP gas, which is primarily propane and butane. Both these are largely derived from the refining of crude oil. Lesser amounts can be removed from natural gas. But to think that by using LP gas, one is reducing dependence on imported energy, is wrong.

 

 

My statement was to say you don't need Gasoline,and wasn't implying we switch to LP,but the trains,trucks,and busses will most certianly go to CNG its already happening in large cites,and the U.S. has lots of Natual Gas of witch 5% is LP Gas and 90% of the LP gas used in the U.S. is produced here 50% from Natual Gas,50% from Crude Oil,7% imported from Canada and Mexico,3% other. More Natual Gas Wells are comming on line as fast as they can drill them,over 30% of are Crude Oil imports are for Diesel for Trucks Trains,And Busses and that cuts the Saudi Arabia out,then you have Diesel Power Stations,they too can be ran on CNG Gas and there gose 10% more Imported Crude Oil!

 

We are behind in the CNG Gas witch is big world wide,but Crude Oil was Cheap and GW is a Asshat Oil Fuck and now he is like OMG we have to stop are OIL IMPORTS!!!

 

BTW this is not a in your face,back at you thing,so i checked out what you said and you were wrong,no biggie! HAPPY GREEN YEAR!!!

[MarkMcJizzy]

 

BTW this is not a in your face,back at you thing,so i checked out what you said and you were wrong,no biggie! HAPPY GREEN YEAR!!!

 

I do not believe that you understand your own data

 

1) All fuel gases are fossil fuels

 

2) All propane is derived from an oil source either at:

a: A refinery from crude oil

b: From "wet" natural gas. Wet natural gas is natural gas associated with a crude oil deposit

 

3) To say that 90% of US LP gas is domestically produced is misleading. Your numbers mean that the propane is produced in the US, at a US refinery. 50% of the oil refined at American refineries is imported, so it follows that the final source of the resultant propane is foreign.

 

4) As a motor vehicle fuel, gasoline is presently much more practical due to its higher density

 

5) Also, due to its much higher density, propane is a much more practical motor vehicle fuel than natural gas.

 

6) To believe that the use of LP or CNG as a fuel for motor vehicle is either "green", or on the path to energy independence is ludicrous. Even natural gas imports to the US are increasing, by the large LNG tankers sailing from the Mid-east. And both are fossil fuels which emit green house gasses

[STP]

Oh, shit.

 

Shocker: Huffington Post carries climate realist essay

[JayB]

When it comes to Global Warming, getting the science right will be the easy part. Deciding how to respond will involve moving into the realm of conflicting value judgments based on the same evidence, and determining how to allocate scarce resources that have many alternative uses in response to the science will be infinitely harder.

 

 

 

 

Infinitely harder? Gee, that sounds a lot like impossible, no? Have you morphed your pre-Gore argument from 'let's wait until we've got more information' to a post-Gore 'let's wait until we can figure out what to do'? It's no surprise that 'wait', ie, do nothing, is the common theme in all your arguments.

 

JayB & company seems to prefer to remain confused on how humanity should move forward regarding the Global Warming issue, but to me, the process, already massively underway, seems relatively simple; change perception and values and the money, innovation, and lifestyle changes will follow. Where this will take us may not be predictable, and we may fall short along the way, but I really don't see what's so confusing here.

 

Money follows values in this country. Where is the venture capital money going these days? Green technologies. That was completely untrue 3 years ago; venture capitalists hadn't even heard of the technologies they're now ponying up millions for today. Large corporations follow the values of consumers, not the other way around. Car companies are tripping over themselves to produce greener vehicles. Did they come up with the idea?

 

The three Rs, carbon footprint, downsizing; all are examples of effective concepts that are greening the decisions that individuals make every day.

 

Al Gore's movie may have been as flawed as any human creation, but it certainly did the trick in spades; to expose the 'debate' for what is really was; a denial of an accelerating reality. It's interesting to note that the consequences of global warming are coming home to roost much sooner than even the most rabid proponents predicted. So much for 'waiting until we have more information'...another bullshit PR campaign to delay the inevitable for a few more quarters and elections.

 

Finally, with regards to the idea that investment in green technologies with somehow 'bankrupt us', that is absolute, pure bullshit. Such proposed investments, whether public or private, are subject to the same cost/benefit analysis they've always been, so there is no reason to believe that some new mega-project to create a perpetually self-eating watermelon out of unobtainium will come along and destroy our economy (laughable, given that good old unregulated capitalism just imploded without any help from the sci fi writers). This, like pretty much all of the propoganda that has been shoveled our way form the GW denial crowd, is pure fantasy.

 

 

 

How about "orders of magnitude" more difficult. Once you leave the realm of science and enter into the realm of conflicting value judgments, prerogatives, circumstances, political structures, ideologies etc the debate about how to allocate scarce resources that have many alternate uses begins. Glad you're and optimist, and I hope that bottom-up methods such as persuasion via reasoned dialogue that you are advocating in this post remain "the movements" preferred method of bringing about the changes that the people within it desire.

 

It'll be interesting to see how many people stick to their guns while the global recession runs its course. Sales at whole foods are down, sales at Walmart are up - and this pretty well sums up the way that most people operate when the rubber hits the road and people have to make decisions that actually involve going without.

[j_b]

I don't understand how the observation that folks would eat shit instead of starving means that we shouldn't stimulate the economy while retooling it to avoid the dead-end of plundering resources and the environment as if there were no tomorrow.

[Fairweather]

I don't understand how the observation that folks would eat shit instead of starving means that we shouldn't stimulate the economy while retooling it to avoid the dead-end of plundering resources and the environment as if there were no tomorrow.

 

Solar panels will just plunder blue-light photons produced in the stellar core that were intended to travel the universe. Is it right that we humans interrupt their journey and enslave them in such a manner? I mean, we're talking about UV that will be forced to produce work and never convert to IR to find it's way back out into space. It's just wrong, wrong, wrong.

[JayB]

I don't understand how the observation that folks would eat shit instead of starving means that we shouldn't stimulate the economy while retooling it to avoid the dead-end of plundering resources and the environment as if there were no tomorrow.

 

There's quite a bit of latitude between a mechanism like an incremental carbon tax with a low-point of entry, and a global "New Five Year Plan/Great Leap Forward," no? Which end of the spectrum does your preferred set of policy responses fall into?

 

How much power do you want to grant the government to oversee the manner in which people live in order to meet/satisfy your CO2 output reduction goals? Would a simple incentive like the carbon-tax that I mentioned be sufficient, or would you be in favor of granting whatever agency is tasked with overseeing compliance with carbon reduction goals significantly more latitude to do what they deem necessary?

 

 

[j_b]

It is symptomatic of your ideologic tunnel vision that you chose a "great leap forward" analogy instead of "marshall plan", "new deal" or "manhattan project".

 

I have already said I woudn't discuss the details of a carbon tax without also reconsidering the entire imposition scheme including tax havens.