Denali Expedition 2008 - Looking for 10-12 member

[builder206]

If you are truly surprised by this response, rather than just annoyed that your post didn’t sail smoothly by the attention of those who don’t share your beliefs, then you are truly oblivious to the world around you...We are not weak minded fools who have made the decision not to believe in a Christian god lightly. Most of us have given some measure of consideration.

 

Belief is a choice. If this were untrue, there would be people who believed but did not want to and people who wanted to believe but couldn’t. This is not the case; belief *is* a choice. So, given the constant, inescapable bath of Christianty and Jesus-talk in America, how can you presume that any climbers “need to hear” the Good News? It seems very arrogant that you would think it was your place and role to put your religion in climbers’ faces. They have heard it all ad nauseum. If they wished to pursue it, they would.

 

Add your frikkin guitar and that’s a tasin’.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

yeah, if you didn't tell me you're "christian", i'd think you were a great guy. heck i might even like you in person.

 

Yeah, if you, TTK, and JH didn't tell me you were atheists, I'd think you were great people too. heck, I might even like you in person.

 

however, the topic of your post was your religion and sharing your religion in the mountains.

 

Kind of like those who post disrepectful avatars with images of Christ smoking a cigarette, or the bastardized sistine-chapel image of the spagetthi monster touching the hand of man, or joking about how funny and cool "bong hits for Jesus" would be.

 

If you are truly surprised by this response, rather than just annoyed that your post didn’t sail smoothly by the attention of those who don’t share your beliefs, then you are truly oblivious to the world around you.

 

right back at you hateful, vitriolic atheists who are so intolerant and disrespectful for those who choose faith and a meaningful existence over an accident of nature ending in death and cessation of consciousness forever.

 

News flash! Not everyone is a Christian, Not everyone feel the need for the security blanket of religion. Some of us even find it offensive and insulting that you think that our chosen lives need some sort of overhaul by adding religion. We are not weak minded fools who have made the decision not to believe in a Christian god lightly. Most of us have given some measure of consideration.

 

News flash! Every Christian knows there are lots of atheists and agnostics out there. In fact we are made painfully aware of this every year as the ACLU and loud-mouthed atheists try to restrict our rights to celebrate our religion in public and try to force us into a closet.

 

Some of US find it offensive that YOU characterize our choice/faith as being a "security blanket", that YOU call us "weak-minded fools" who believe in fables, myths, and fantasy, and that you think we chose our faith lightly, with no thought whatsoever.

 

I know you will find this hard to believe but some of us actually find organized Christianity offensive.

 

I know you will find this hard to believe, but some of us Christians actually find vocal, hateful, organized atheists just as offensive as you find prosetylizing Christians.

 

 

[mattp]

just some of 'em

 

As has been made obvious on cc.com over and over again, Christians do not have the market cornered when it comes to being judgmental and intolerant, though KK I'd have to say you do a good job of demonstrating the crude intolerance some of us here associate with right wing Christians. I already posted that I agree with some of the complaints about the "tone" of the anti-Christian ranting here but Minx is right: Vertical Hiker should not have expected a solidly warm reception on this bulletin board and he's going to have to expect some people to be quite hostile if he introduces himself to other climbers on Mt. McKinley by saying "Hi. I"m here for a Cristian climb..."

[minx]

KKKKK.....

 

I could responde to each of your points and we could back and forth for hours and it would be fun over a beer but not while i'm trying to get something done.

 

suffice it to say, since we atheists are out numbered by you christians, i'd say my concern over being prostelytized to by christians is a much more real concern than you having to deal w/the occasional atheist.

 

i don't think that i was disrespectful in my post.

 

it cracks me up that you'd even turn it into a debate. there is no room for debate on this subject. there is no compromise between the two sides.

[Seahawks]

yeah, if you didn't tell me you're "christian", i'd think you were a great guy. heck i might even like you in person.

 

Yeah, if you, TTK, and JH didn't tell me you were atheists, I'd think you were great people too. heck, I might even like you in person.

 

however, the topic of your post was your religion and sharing your religion in the mountains.

 

Kind of like those who post disrepectful avatars with images of Christ smoking a cigarette, or the bastardized sistine-chapel image of the spagetthi monster touching the hand of man, or joking about how funny and cool "bong hits for Jesus" would be.

 

If you are truly surprised by this response, rather than just annoyed that your post didn’t sail smoothly by the attention of those who don’t share your beliefs, then you are truly oblivious to the world around you.

 

right back at you hateful, vitriolic atheists who are so intolerant and disrespectful for those who choose faith and a meaningful existence over an accident of nature ending in death and cessation of consciousness forever.

 

News flash! Not everyone is a Christian, Not everyone feel the need for the security blanket of religion. Some of us even find it offensive and insulting that you think that our chosen lives need some sort of overhaul by adding religion. We are not weak minded fools who have made the decision not to believe in a Christian god lightly. Most of us have given some measure of consideration.

 

News flash! Every Christian knows there are lots of atheists and agnostics out there. In fact we are made painfully aware of this every year as the ACLU and loud-mouthed atheists try to restrict our rights to celebrate our religion in public and try to force us into a closet.

 

Some of US find it offensive that YOU characterize our choice/faith as being a "security blanket", that YOU call us "weak-minded fools" who believe in fables, myths, and fantasy, and that you think we chose our faith lightly, with no thought whatsoever.

 

I know you will find this hard to believe but some of us actually find organized Christianity offensive.

 

I know you will find this hard to believe, but some of us Christians actually find vocal, hateful, organized atheists just as offensive as you find prosetylizing Christians.

 

 

well said.

[tvashtarkatena]

In fact we are made painfully aware of this every year as the ACLU and loud-mouthed atheists try to restrict our rights to celebrate our religion in public and try to force us into a closet.

 

Bwaaaaa-haa-haa!

 

No one is trying to force you back into the closet KKK, least of all the ACLU. We fully support your agenda.

[minx]

In fact we are made painfully aware of this every year as the ACLU and loud-mouthed atheists try to restrict our rights to celebrate our religion in public and try to force us into a closet.

 

Bwaaaaa-haa-haa!

 

No one is trying to force you back into the closet KKK, least of all the ACLU. We fully support your agenda.

 

you're public display of religion is just as offensive to me as the pic of the flying spaghetti monster/sistine chapel is to you. think about it.

[tvashtarkatena]

I find it laughable when Christians feel 'persecuted' in this, the most Bible thumping of nations. Save it, you whiny fuckers.

 

It's also laughable when The Persecuted object to attempts to remove Christianity from the publicly funded arena.

 

"They're trying to remove IN GOD WE TRUST from our coins!"

 

How about if we change it to IN ALLAH WE TRUST, or IN THE FSM WE TRUST?

 

Or, how about if we just take the Constitution seriously and change it to BLANK, so that anyone may worship as they please and not feel like they live in a nation that favors one religion so heavily?

 

Look, if cults are your thing, fine. It's a free country. Just keep that shit out of the publically funded sphere, so it can be a free country for the rest of us. And, for Christ's sake, quit the fucking whining just because you don't always succeed in using government to impose your cult on the rest of us.

Edited December 19, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[mattp]

Bwaaaaa-haa-haa!

 

No one is trying to force you back into the closet KKK, least of all the ACLU. We fully support your agenda.

 

C'mon, TVash. That is why I posted that excerpt from the Congressional bill that Bagdad Jim voted against yesterday. He voted yes to recognize that there exists a holiday called Ramadan, but voted no to reject a statement that Christianity is and should be the predominant religion of the United States. The ACLU must be behind this.

[Bug]

In fact we are made painfully aware of this every year as the ACLU and loud-mouthed atheists try to restrict our rights to celebrate our religion in public and try to force us into a closet.

 

Bwaaaaa-haa-haa!

 

No one is trying to force you back into the closet KKK, least of all the ACLU. We fully support your agenda.

 

you're public display of religion is just as offensive to me as the pic of the flying spaghetti monster/sistine chapel is to you. think about it.

There goes Easter and Christmas.

Why do you CHOSE to be offended? Any and all of you?

No one can force you to feel good or feel bad. That is your choice.

I heard all kinds of stuff at camp14K and none of it was Christian. Why are you not complaining about that noise?

It is because of what you CHOSE to be offended by.

Don't get me wrong. I love this thread. I just wasted an hour reading the whole thing.

Wow! You guys are really into religion.

[mattp]

Bug, some folks here may have "Jesus issues" but wouldn't you agree that there are a lot of screwed up things done in the name of religion? Do you think the present infusion of "Christian" values and the narrow agenda of groups like the Christian Coalition is a good thing in American politics?

[ericb]

In fact we are made painfully aware of this every year as the ACLU and loud-mouthed atheists try to restrict our rights to celebrate our religion in public and try to force us into a closet.

 

Bwaaaaa-haa-haa!

 

No one is trying to force you back into the closet KKK, least of all the ACLU. We fully support your agenda.

 

you're public display of religion is just as offensive to me as the pic of the flying spaghetti monster/sistine chapel is to you. think about it.

 

There's a difference here Minx...a big one.....our public display of religion is not done to cause offense....some people choose to be offended by it. The spaghetti monster, smoking jesus, stories of using bible pages as TP etc., is to offend christians, and to the extent that it's done to amuse fellow atheists, it's only amusing because it offends christian....it's a question of motives.

[ericb]

Bug, some folks here may have "Jesus issues" but wouldn't you agree that there are a lot of screwed up things done in the name of religion? Do you think the present infusion of "Christian" values and the narrow agenda of groups like the Christian Coalition is a good thing in American politics?

 

why is this any different than the attempt to infuse non-christian values by interest groups - is the agenda of these groups less "narrow"

[tvashtarkatena]

Bug, some folks here may have "Jesus issues" but wouldn't you agree that there are a lot of screwed up things done in the name of religion? Do you think the present infusion of "Christian" values and the narrow agenda of groups like the Christian Coalition is a good thing in American politics?

 

why is this any different than the attempt to infuse non-christian values by interest groups - is the agenda of these groups less "narrow"

 

Because there is no such attempt. That is bullshit. These are "attempts" to abide by the establishment clause of our Constitution, which means a separation of church and state, not attempts to eliminate religion from private life. There has been no attempt on the part of any group to remove religion from anything other than government and state supported activities, as the Constitution so clearly proscribes.

 

In stark contrast, Christian lobby groups seek to impose their particular religion and its values on everyone in this country directly through government, whether its prayer in public schools, displaying the ten commandments in a courthouse, or outlawing abortion entirely, in flagrant violation of the Constitution. Groups such as the Christian Coalition openly believe that their religion constitutes the highest law. Well, some of us kind of prefer the laws that we lowly humans come up with and have a say in, rather than cowing to the laws of an eternal life cult we refuse to join.

Edited December 19, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

There's a difference here Minx...a big one.....our public display of religion is not done to cause offense....some people choose to be offended by it. The spaghetti monster, smoking jesus, stories of using bible pages as TP etc., is to offend christians, and to the extent that it's done to amuse fellow atheists, it's only amusing because it offends christian....it's a question of motives.

 

Also bullshit. You choose to be offended by these things. Remember, being offended is a choice.

 

The FSM was (cleverly) created to challenge the unlawful imposition of Christianity, in violation of the Constitution, by a school board in Kansas that sought to force students into studying creationism, a purely religious teaching. The point of the FSM, and I can't believe this isn't already obvious by now, is why is the FSM any less legitimate a religion that Christianity? The point was successfully made that neither religion has any greater claim on legitimacy; all religions are a matter of faith, not science.

 

As for Jesus, we know little about his life, other than the fact that he 1) drank wine 2) hung around with prostitutes and 3) liked to fish. He didn't smoke tobacco, which remained confined to the New World at the time, but he might have partaken in a number of intoxicating habits of the day. And this is offensive because....?

 

As for using the Bible as TP (I've never heard this one...sounds like it's got urban myth written all over it), if it were true, you know what they say "The Lord helps those..." and "The Good Lord Provides" Would God not want us to wipe our bums and avoid a case of baboon ass by using the only thing readily available? I think God loves us more than a book, don't you?

Edited December 19, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[AlpineK]

[Bug]

Bug, some folks here may have "Jesus issues" but wouldn't you agree that there are a lot of screwed up things done in the name of religion? Do you think the present infusion of "Christian" values and the narrow agenda of groups like the Christian Coalition is a good thing in American politics?

 

why is this any different than the attempt to infuse non-christian values by interest groups - is the agenda of these groups less "narrow"

 

Matt, the sooner we outlaw atheists, the sooner we will conquer sin. Then onward to Democrats.

 

If you read my early posts in this thread, (no, you are not required to do so), you will see that I did bash Christian activities in past societies. I even got b-slapped by KaKstacK.

The use of religion in polotics is way out of balance. In another thread, I lectured you all on the writings of Deitrich Bonhoffer and his theory of the 5 mandates Family, Friendship, Church, State, Marriage. They naturally overlap in places to varying degrees but one should never overpower one or more of the others. If that were to happen then the "Ultima Ratio" becomes neccessary. That is when a normally criminal act is needed to re-instate the balance. Deitrich was the last man executed by the Third Reich and was one of the master minds behind the near assasination of Hitler in the bunker. Deitrich was a Catholic Preist.

I would venture that we are close to needing a "Ultima Ratio". Again, see some of my other posts all over spray. I am terrified by Naomi Wolfe because I beleive she is correct. Religion is just one of the tools in the arsenal used by the current tyrannical would-be's and Hitler. See her Ten Steps to Tyranny.

But we started here with a group of Christians going to Denali. Many assumptions were made.

It has been fun.

[minx]

thanks for covering that Tvash. I was too busy working to point out that annoying thing called the constitution.

 

Hey bug et al. how is my "choosing" to be offended by your public displays of religion any less valid than you "choosing" to be offended by FSM?(or atheism in general)

 

ericb--exactly what is the point of your public displays of religion if not to cause offense? if the point was simply to celebrate, you could do that in the privacy of your own home, church or rented convention center. No, the point of public displays is to intentionally force me to be exposed to your religion. its really no different than the irony and humor of the FSM, bong sucking jesus, and my "fish-n-chips" fish. you choose to be offended by them. most atheists i know view them as quiet way to remind you that some of us don't share your views. my "fish-n-chips" fish isn't on my car to offend you.

 

[JayB]

The canonical beliefs of Flying Spaghetti Monsterism are set forth by Henderson in the Open Letter,[4] the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and on Henderson's web site,[19] where he is described as a prophet.

 

The central belief is that there is an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster, which created the entire universe "after drinking heavily."[2] All evidence for evolution was planted by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, in an effort to test Pastafarians' faith; a form of the Omphalos hypothesis. When scientific measurements, such as radiocarbon dating, are made, the Flying Spaghetti Monster "is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage."[4]

 

The Pastafarian belief of heaven stresses that it contains beer volcanoes and a stripper factory.[20] Hell is similar, except that the beer is stale, and the strippers have VD.[21]"

 

I'm on the verge of converting...

[minx]

skunky beer is a high price to pay for your sins.

[G-spotter]

or better yet organize mission atheist denali 2008 and see if anyone wants join our expedition from climbingforchrist.

 

"Denial Expedition 2008"

[tvashtarkatena]

If you're going to join a cult, why wouldn't you join one with beer volcanoes and stripper factories? To choose sexual abstinence and self righteous piety over this to me is just, well, offensive.

Edited December 19, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[JayB]

I just need to know what kind of beer the volcano produces, how hot the strippers are, and how interested they'll be in chain-doinking me for all of eternity before I sign on the dotted line...

[Bug]

 

Hey bug et al. how is my "choosing" to be offended by your public displays of religion any less valid than you "choosing" to be offended by FSM?(or atheism in general)

Nothing on this site has offended me.

God has a sense of humor. So do I.

I hereby absolve you of all sin.

Well, actually, I can't do that.

That is why Jesus was sacrificed. To absolve us of all sin because we can't stop sinning. None of us, not even Christians.

The Jews HAD to kill him because they were Yahwey's "Chosen

People". "If they couldn't get it right, no one could" was the point of that..

You do not have to beleive any of that for me to think you are cool.

It is all great fodder for conversation and free discourse. If ANY of it were limited, I would fight for it to be allowed. Ask Matt about that. I have often lobbied him (as a rep of the management) to allow more raucus behavior on this site.

So this one's for you.

[tvashtarkatena]

Surfing the beer volcano...

 

...for eternity.