Denali Expedition 2008 - Looking for 10-12 member

[kevbone]

Who cares if they are a bunch of fundamentalist? Is that so bad?

 

kevbone, how would you feel if someone was teaching your little boy about god/religion without your consent?

 

Happens every day in public school.

 

Separation of church and state?

[lizard_brain]

I'll sleep with christians OR atheists.

[tvashtarkatena]

I'll kick steps with Christians or atheists...

 

...but not, under any circumstances, up Tiger Mountain.

[tvashtarkatena]

and you're telling me the Athiests are a threat?

 

At about 3% of the population, I wouldn't feel too threatened.

 

Pontif, when are going out to worship the powdery white god on the holy long shoes?

[mattp]

There you go with that Big Brother stuff again. We gotta go worship your god now?

 

I'm a little busy now, but otherwise a little Pagan solstice ritual might be in order.

[ericb]

Yes, ChucK, I'm down with the First Amendment.

 

The pastor DID tell him how to vote and, I believe, my father in law felt bound to heed his advice.

 

You're right, MoveOn does it but the difference is that about three hundred years ago some grumpy old guys with wigs on decided that we should try our best to keep churches out of our government and while there have ever since been the occasional political speeches invoking god, and while there may be nothing per se wrong with churches being involved in political discussions, the present trend in American politics is that religion is becoming, for a large segment of the population, THE litmus test for a candidate and the word from their church THE basis for any vote.

 

 

Matt - I've been very involved with one church in Spokane, one in Dallas, and four in Seattle, and not once has there been any directive from the pulpit or church leadership, implied or otherwise on how to vote or what the "Christian" party is.

[tvashtarkatena]

We atheists are a hateful bunch. Being one means I have to hang around with one whether I like it or not, which puts me in even a fouler mood. That's why we have to continually recruit new climbing partners.

 

Who wants to climb with a raving maniac who can't hear you say "off belay" over his screeching about hating God all the time?

 

Plus, you never know when we're going to up and rape a five year old or bludgeon a puppy to death...BECAUSE WE CAN.

Edited December 18, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[wfinley]

And why shouldn't churches be able tell people how they think they should vote? Moveon.org does it! Hillary Clinton and Mike Huckabee have been doing it multiple times a day for the last several months!

 

MoveOn is a Political Action Committees and thus donations are not tax deductible. Churches are tax except and donations a tax deductible. If a church starts telling it's congregation how to vote then they should lose their tax exempt status and donations should not be tax deductible.

 

[chucK]

I think if you go all the way back to your grumpy old guys with wigs, you'll find that religion plays a lot less of role as a political litmus test nowadays than it has over most of our history. Now if you shrink your window to the last 50 years, then your argument might hold a bit more water, but it's still debatable.

 

I'm not so scared about having religion in the politics. The constitution and our system has been keeping us pretty safe from govt. imposition of religious doctrine.

 

What's more scary is the goddamned politics in religion. This of course, has been going on for millenia, of religious leaders abusing their positions to gain more wealth and power in the political realm. When Christian churches start preaching hate (walling off the border, deporting people, putting people to death, starting wars) and greed (big business anti-environmental legislation) that's one more powerful force for good corrupted. It sucks.

[chucK]

And why shouldn't churches be able tell people how they think they should vote? Moveon.org does it! Hillary Clinton and Mike Huckabee have been doing it multiple times a day for the last several months!

 

MoveOn is a Political Action Committees and thus donations are not tax deductible. Churches are tax except and donations a tax deductible. If a church starts telling it's congregation how to vote then they should lose their tax exempt status and donations should not be tax deductible.

 

Agreed. IRS has been going after a couple such churches the last year or so. It's been in the papers.

[lizard_brain]

and you're telling me the Athiests are a threat?

 

At about 3% of the population, I wouldn't feel too threatened.

 

Pontif, when are going out to worship the powdery white god on the holy long shoes?

 

Richard Dawkins says that there are probably more atheists than there are Jews in the world, but they tend to be so independent and such freethinkers that they don't tend to organize and form lobbying groups like religious groups as the Jews have.

 

Just sayin'.

[tvashtarkatena]

Donations to Moveon are not tax deductible, but it is a tax exempt organization. It has the same tax status as the Christian Coalition. It's important to note that urging a congregation to vote a certain way does not constitute lobbying (which means urging members of congress to vote a certain way and helping to draft legislation). There are many kinds of 501© charitable organizations, with different restrictions on their political activities. Something to confuse the issue further from wiki:

 

Political activity

Organizations with this classification are prohibited from conducting political campaign activities to influence elections to public office. Public charities (but not private foundations) are permitted to conduct a limited amount of lobbying to influence legislation. Although the law states that "no substantial part" of a public charity's activities may be devoted to lobbying, charities with very large budgets may lawfully expend a million dollars (under the "expenditure" test) or more (under the "substantial part" test) per year on lobbying. [5]

 

All 501©(3) organizations are also permitted to educate individuals about issues, or fund research that supports their political position without overtly advocating for a position on a specific bill. Think tanks such as the Cato Institute, Center for American Progress, and Heritage Foundation and other 501©(3) organizations produce reports and recommendations on policy proposals that do not count as lobbying under the tax code.

 

 

[edit] Examples of 501©(3) organizations

Many 501©(3) organizations are part of nonprofit "conglomerates," having organizational control relationships with other nonprofit organizations. A 501©(4) advocacy organization may create a 501©(3) that operates solely for "educational" purposes. The League of Women Voters advocates positions on issues and evaluates candidates as a 501©(4) and uses its 501©(3) arm to provide nonpartisan voter information. A 501©(6) business league may create a 501©(3) arm to conduct research related to the business focus of the parent organization.

 

Prominent 501©(3) organizations include:

 

American Red Cross

Catholic Charities

Goodwill Industries

Habitat for Humanity

Planned Parenthood

Salvation Army

United Way

Feed The Children

Charity Navigator offers information on more than five thousand 501©(3) public charities.

 

 

[edit] 501©(4)

501©(4) exemptions are given to civic leagues or organizations not organized for profit but operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare, or local associations of employees, the membership of which is limited to the employees of a designated person or persons in a particular municipality, and the net earnings of which are devoted exclusively to charitable, educational, or recreational purposes.[6] 501©(4) organizations differ from 501©(3) in that they are permitted to lobby for legislation.

 

The exemption applies so long as "...no part of the net earnings of such entity inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual."[7]

 

 

[edit] Deductibility of donations to 501©(4) organizations

Unlike donations to the more prevalent 501©(3) non-profit organizations, donations to a section 501©(4) organization are not deductible by the donor under section 170 of the code unless the recipient organization is a volunteer fire department as described in revenue ruling 80-77 or veteran organizations with at least 90% of its membership consisting of war veterans as described in IRS Revenue Ruling 84-140.

 

 

[edit] Prominent 501©(4) organizations

AARP

National Rifle Association

MoveOn.org

League of Conservation Voters

Christian Coalition

 

Edited December 18, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[minx]

Who cares if they are a bunch of fundamentalist? Is that so bad?

 

kevbone, how would you feel if someone was teaching your little boy about god/religion without your consent?

 

Happens every day in public school.

 

Separation of church and state?

 

yeah, you'd like to think that. wait til the first time your kid has an argument with a classmate about religion and the teacher has to get involved. there's a lot of subtle ways that our children are exposed at school

[chucK]

[tvashtarkatena]

Separating church and state requires a really long, sharp crowbar.

[dmuja]

 

One citizen - one vote. They have no more or less power to organize politically than do atheists, liberals, commies, wankers...whoever.

 

One citizen - one vote? See, Florida vote 2000, Ohio vote 2004. Christian leaders get access to people in power -the prez for instance- like very few other groups do. Liberal is now a dirty word thanks to His holiness Rush and the "liberal media". Commies get on the watch list and are murdered if they get loud enough - re Carolina shotgun attack on a commie rally some years ago. Im not a commie btw, prolly more socialist/anarchist leaning. Atheists are looked at with disdain socially and are often ostracized if they speak up they way Christians so often feel the need to do. Its much more accepted to say that you "are into sprituality" bla, puke..

 

Personally, I like Jeebus the man, going just off of his legend. Seems like he would endorse Obama and kick a few proselytizing snake oil salesman's asses if he were around today. He'd no doubt be a socialist and strong environmentalist as well. Gee, I might be a Christian after all! Although probably not the kind that Vertical H would accept.

 

The posters claiming that the "non-believers" are being intolerant are missing the point. No one should tolerate intentional ignorance, yet that is exactly what you get when you encounter a preachy fundamentalist with a superiority complex - even if he is "just here to help". Their mindset is a disaster for societies as history can so often attest to- and is a potential disaster in the mountains as well imo.

 

Wanna impress me that you have the "righteous path" LIVE IT! Shut the hell up and live youre path, be an example as a human being. That is what counts, not some stupid mission you're on. Be a light unto...

[minx]

and you're telling me the Athiests are a threat?

 

At about 3% of the population, I wouldn't feel too threatened.

 

Pontif, when are going out to worship the powdery white god on the holy long shoes?

 

Richard Dawkins says that there are probably more atheists than there are Jews in the world, but they tend to be so independent and such freethinkers that they don't tend to organize and form lobbying groups like religious groups as the Jews have.

 

Just sayin'.

 

great! maybe all of us atheist should get together, pick a really cool spot, and declare it our homeland.

[JayB]

I think if you go all the way back to your grumpy old guys with wigs, you'll find that religion plays a lot less of role as a political litmus test nowadays than it has over most of our history. Now if you shrink your window to the last 50 years, then your argument might hold a bit more water, but it's still debatable.

 

I'm not so scared about having religion in the politics. The constitution and our system has been keeping us pretty safe from govt. imposition of religious doctrine.

 

What's more scary is the goddamned politics in religion. This of course, has been going on for millenia, of religious leaders abusing their positions to gain more wealth and power in the political realm. When Christian churches start preaching hate (walling off the border, deporting people, putting people to death, starting wars) and greed (big business anti-environmental legislation) that's one more powerful force for good corrupted. It sucks.

 

I've run into quite a few people who find theological justification for their left-of-center beliefs in whatever religion they belong to, and organizations that do the same.

 

What has upset people on the left over the past twenty years doesn't seem to be that there are religious groups or people with overtly political agendas, but rather that the religious people and groups who share their convictions have been substantially less effective at translating their religiously inspired political convictions into concrete political gains than people with who they disagree on most political issues.

 

Edited to acknowledge Exhibit A two posts above.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2007 by JayB

[G-spotter]

It's a common misconception that atheists are all one group. It's more like anarchists - you have the ultra-libertarians and the anarcho-communists under the same label but disagreeing on everything.

 

I fall on the atheist side of agnostic but I think Dawkins is more of a fundamentalist of the sort he himself criticizes. What Bob Wilson called an "Irrational Rationalist".

[marylou]

so i can be a total fucker (rape, kill, steal, lie, cheat) . then one day magically drop down on knees and declare jesus christ as my lord and savior and then i'm cool and the gang and get to go to heaven.

 

Yep, that's pretty much the way it has been explained to me.

 

[JayB]

It's a common misconception that atheists are all one group. It's more like anarchists - you have the ultra-libertarians and the anarcho-communists under the same label but disagreeing on everything.

 

I fall on the atheist side of agnostic but I think Dawkins is more of a fundamentalist of the sort he himself criticizes. What Bob Wilson called an "Irrational Rationalist".

 

I'd say all athiests are pretty much in agreement when it comes to the supernatural phenomena that religion concerns itself with, but it's no surprise that this does not translate into anything resembling unanimity on political issues that are completely unrelated to such questions, or at best only tangentially related to them.

[lizard_brain]

and you're telling me the Athiests are a threat?

 

At about 3% of the population, I wouldn't feel too threatened.

 

Pontif, when are going out to worship the powdery white god on the holy long shoes?

 

Richard Dawkins says that there are probably more atheists than there are Jews in the world, but they tend to be so independent and such freethinkers that they don't tend to organize and form lobbying groups like religious groups as the Jews have.

 

Just sayin'.

 

great! maybe all of us atheist should get together, pick a really cool spot, and declare it our homeland.

 

We just need a lobbying group. Someone to lean on the govenrnment for us. Show our numbers. $$$

[builder206]

so i can be a total fucker (rape, kill, steal, lie, cheat) . then one day magically drop down on knees and declare jesus christ as my lord and savior and then i'm cool and the gang and get to go to heaven.

 

Yep, that's pretty much the way it has been explained to me.

 

funny how often the conversion occurs sometime between indictment and sentencing

 

or in the case of the many evangelist Christian "pastors" who are revealed in the press to be boy lovers, prostitute customers, etc., the atonement happens right after the story breaks in the press

[JayB]

Seems like a good opportunity to draw some attention to this guy.

The Christopher Hitchens of the 19th Century.

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/

 

[marylou]

So here's my question for the originator of this thread:

 

If someone is an atheist who does good works, what do your beliefs tell you about what happens to them after they die? If they must stand in judgement, what chances do they have for salvation if they were ardent non-believers their whole life?

 

I'm gonna be a buttinski because I have asked this question of a few True Believers and by and large, they've said the non-believer is getting a one-way ticket to H E DoubleHockeySticks regardless of how "good" they were when bound in the mortal coil. Most say is has everything to do with accepting JCasLordandSavior and nothing to do with doing the right thing.

 

It's a weird deal, and personally I think that if I got it wrong and the Jesus/God thing IS real, that people who did right by their fellow humans while alive will get in past them Pearly Gates, 'cuz from what I know about JC he didn't have too big an ego about his gig. He'd forgive.