Ten Days That Shook Olympia

[tvashtarkatena]

Thanks for posting a dose of reality for the rest of us.

[shortstow]

it seems then that the local papers/press do just like the national papers/press do, focus on the one or two bad things/people when there are a 100 or 200 other good things/people going on right infront of them. I guess good things dont keep people glued to the tube

[prole]

Thanks for the eyewitness accounts. Dannible, when you post your pictures, be sure to include the ones of the babies being used as human-shields as was slanderously accused by a previous poster. I didn't see any in the video footage.

[JayB]

Thanks for the eyewitness accounts. Dannible, when you post your pictures, be sure to include the ones of the babies being used as human-shields as was slanderously accused by a previous poster. I didn't see any in the video footage.

 

Must be Vern Troyer in the green parka...

 

 

 

[Bug]

A response I would expect from KK or FW. The company you keep is rubbing off on you. Try harder.

 

When every adult has access to the voting booth and appeals to the courts to preserve the rights defined in the constitution and the bill of rights - the moral and intellectual justifications that one can employ on behalf of such actions are few.

 

I believe that the only reason that the first "action" succeeded is because the protesters included non-consenting parties - in this case children - in their ranks, and the police felt that they weren't properly staffed or equipped to forcibly remove the children from the scene. Nice.

 

I'm not comfortable leaving it to the mob to define what's legal and what's not, which purposes the infrastructure can and cannot be used for, etc. I may not always agree with the law or the legislature - but in cases where everyone has recourse to the courts and the voting booth - I much prefer letting the courts and the legislature make these decisions.

 

 

I lived through the sixties and lost friends in VietNam.

If we invade Iran, these "kids" in the video will be forced to man the front lines of another unwinnable war.

Do you believe the war in VietNam was a just war? Did we belong there? Would the legislature have done anything to stop it without the protests of "the kids" of the 60's?

I seriously doubt it.

 

Your abortion arguement is not about an external war we CAN and should avoid engaging in. Why launch more huge machines in order to take more human lives?

Abortion rights WERE legislated via MASSIVE citizen involvement including huge marches.

I understand that we are both talking about human life. I submit that the cause and effect are different (money, power), and therefore require different tactics.

The religious right continues to support candidates, including Bush, who only pay lip service to pro-life legislation. Why don't THEY pull the plug on these candidates they so heartily support even after they know they have been used and lied to?

 

 

 

[lizard_brain]

People in the community are making it out to be a pretty violent protest, but my only negative experiences came from the pro war people, who threatened to smash my camera, and tried to get me to fight when I hadn't even said anything to them.

 

Amazing. This is what they behaved like at the larger protest last month. Taunting protesters with a crowd of police around them.

[tvashtarkatena]

Washington state property tax code, for starters. And a state supreme court that is bought and paid for by public employee unions and the state DNC. Shay was right.

 

Y U HATES ECUDATION??/

 

I hate property tax. it just seems anti-American that you can't own your land and be done with it. no no no, you HAVE to have an income to have the American dream. seems to, albeit in a relatively small way, perpetuate wealth. if I were a liberal I'd still be against it and would find another way to make it up.

 

You are the first person other than I whom I've heard express this viewpoint. We're 100% on the same page here. Here's to you:

 

Feel free to move to a state that doesn't have property taxes. Oh wait, there isn't one. Well, in that case, feel free to move to any one of the following low property tax states:

 

Louisiana, Alabama, West Virginia, Mississippi and Arkansas

 

Stay here and quit whining, or move to a less expensive shithole. You get what you pay for. The choice is yours.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[prole]

If we invade Iran, these "kids" in the video will be forced to man the front lines of another unwinnable war.

Do you believe the war in VietNam was a just war? Did we belong there? Would the legislature have done anything to stop it without the protests of "the kids" of the 60's?

I seriously doubt it.

 

Looks like quite a few of the kids on the front lines of Iraq are making a significant contribution to ending this war:

 

Army desertion rate highest since 1980

By LOLITA C. BALDOR, Associated Press Writer 47 minutes ago

 

WASHINGTON - Soldiers strained by six years at war are deserting their posts at the highest rate since 1980, with the number of Army deserters this year showing an 80 percent increase since the United States invaded Iraq in 2003.

 

While the totals are still far lower than they were during the Vietnam war, when the draft was in effect, they show a steady increase over the past four years and a 42 percent jump since last year.

 

According to the Army, about nine in every 1,000 soldiers deserted in fiscal year 2007, which ended Sept. 30, compared to nearly seven per 1,000 a year earlier. Overall, 4,698 soldiers deserted this year, compared to 3,301 last year.--from AP 11/16/07

[JayB]

A response I would expect from KK or FW. The company you keep is rubbing off on you. Try harder.

 

When every adult has access to the voting booth and appeals to the courts to preserve the rights defined in the constitution and the bill of rights - the moral and intellectual justifications that one can employ on behalf of such actions are few.

 

I believe that the only reason that the first "action" succeeded is because the protesters included non-consenting parties - in this case children - in their ranks, and the police felt that they weren't properly staffed or equipped to forcibly remove the children from the scene. Nice.

 

I'm not comfortable leaving it to the mob to define what's legal and what's not, which purposes the infrastructure can and cannot be used for, etc. I may not always agree with the law or the legislature - but in cases where everyone has recourse to the courts and the voting booth - I much prefer letting the courts and the legislature make these decisions.

 

 

I lived through the sixties and lost friends in VietNam.

If we invade Iran, these "kids" in the video will be forced to man the front lines of another unwinnable war.

Do you believe the war in VietNam was a just war? Did we belong there? Would the legislature have done anything to stop it without the protests of "the kids" of the 60's?

I seriously doubt it.

 

Your abortion arguement is not about an external war we CAN and should avoid engaging in. Why launch more huge machines in order to take more human lives?

Abortion rights WERE legislated via MASSIVE citizen involvement including huge marches.

I understand that we are both talking about human life. I submit that the cause and effect are different (money, power), and therefore require different tactics.

The religious right continues to support candidates, including Bush, who only pay lip service to pro-life legislation. Why don't THEY pull the plug on these candidates they so heartily support even after they know they have been used and lied to?

 

 

 

If I were arguing against protesting in general, I could see where you were coming from with this one. That wasn't the argument that I was making, however. These people could have exercised their right to protest and "have their voices heard," from the side of the road.

 

There are people who have convictions that are just as sincere who oppose abortion, mixed race marriages, school integration, etc - and the question is whether they should be applauded for taking their private morality and taking it upon themselves to determine which uses of public infrastructure are acceptable, which legal rights established under the law others should be able to exercise, etc.

 

I'm not arguing that every law enacted by the legislature is perfect, but that those who object to a given law should do so in a manner that doesn't involve taking the law into their own hands. The alternative is mob rule, and while this mob may be acting in accordance with your convictions, the next mob that gathers to take "direct aggressive action" may not.

[chucK]

I guess you're not a big fan of Rosa Parks.

[JayB]

I guess that you are attempting to compare the political status of these protesters to that of blacks under Jim Crow laws. "When every adult has access to the voting booth and appeals to the courts to preserve the rights defined in the constitution and the bill of rights - the moral and intellectual justifications that one can employ on behalf of such actions are few." Were the folks in Olympia systematically disenfranchised? If not, then the comparison you've made is ludicrous.

 

A more apt comparison would be that of Bull Connor and George Wallace. They lacked nothing in terms of political rights or representation, didn't like the laws that resulted from the actions of Congress and the Courts, and tried to take matters into their own hands.

[tvashtarkatena]

I guess that you are attempting to compare the political status of these protesters to that of blacks under Jim Crow laws.

 

A more apt comparison would be that of Bull Connor and George Wallace. They lacked nothing in terms of political rights or representation, didn't like the laws that resulted from the actions of Congress and the Courts, and tried to take matters into their own hands.

 

No, I think Rosa Parks was much closer to the mark. The protesters in Olympia where attempting to promote social justice by helping to end an unjust war. In the 1950's, there were many people just like you who labeled the civil rights protesters as a 'mob'. All their arguments were the same as your's are today; absolutely no difference whatsoever.

 

The protesters in Olympia are not a 'mob'; they're a group of protesting citizens. They knowingly broke the law in acts of civil disobedience to draw attention to the issue, just as Rosa Parks and her civil rights allies did. They expected to be arrested, and they were. You may agree or disagree with their issue or their tactics, but you've carefully chosen your labels to reduce them into disgruntled vandals. Clearly, by all accounts, they are anything but that.

 

You also refuse to grant them credit the whatever success (the closing of the port to military shipments, however temporary) their action had, claiming they were using children as human shields or whatever. An amazing observation from 3000 miles away, but then again you're practiced at making them. The fact of the matter is, from your body of similar postings, is that you don't actually believe in the fundamental right to protest, and you're not honest enough to admit it openly.

 

This protest achieved it's planned objective; draw attention to the issue and stop shipments through the port of Tacoma, at least for a time. You may have trouble accepting that, but the facts speak clearly for themselves, with or without your trans-continental opinion.

[chucK]

You're the one who attempted to compare war protesters to abortion protesters. I don't see my comparison as being any more of a stretch.

 

Rosa Parks took the law into her own hands. She used direct aggressive tactics and forced poor white people to have to sit near and behind a black person. Her protest was a non-violent action, as are I would bet the vast majority of the protesters in Olympia. I'll bet those kids in your picture were not throwing any rocks.

 

Were Bull Connor and George Wallace practicing private non-violent protest?

 

If there's a difference between non-violent abortion protesters and the non-violent Olympia protesters, it's that the abortion protesters are restricting the legal rights of private citizens while the Olympia protesters are attempting to restrict a governmental action. I think the state can protect itself, whereas your typical woman going to an abortion clinic is going to be more vulnerable to being irreparably harmed.

[Bug]

How about Gahndi?

Should his followers have stood at the side of the road?

Your arguement lacks teeth as would a meek protest.

 

I submit that this presidency is over-stepping it's powers.

Not in it's power to dissiminate troops but in it's manipulation of intelligence and deliberate lying to or stonewalling of the Congressional oversight committees that were established to maintain the "Balance of powers".

We should all be out in the middle of the road.

I am ashamed of my generation. They stood up so they would not have to go to war but they continue to elect war mongers, liars, and then sit on their hands while thousands of people die needlessly.

[Jim]

I'm not arguing that every law enacted by the legislature is perfect, but that those who object to a given law should do so in a manner that doesn't involve taking the law into their own hands. The alternative is mob rule, and while this mob may be acting in accordance with your convictions, the next mob that gathers to take "direct aggressive action" may not.

 

Using the word mob is over the top. These were peaceful protestors (minus the several assholes). In the past if folks blocked traffic they were simply hauled off and arrested, which is the risk you take for any civil disobedience. Fair enough. But now there seems to be an increase in mace first ask questions later. Why mace a 20-year-old who is just sitting in the street, then chase after them with batons once they do start fleeing the mace? Maybe the cops are getting less training on how to deal with protestors, or they see it as easier to mace folks that are peacefully protestors. Don't know. But it's an apparant trend.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Maybe the cops are getting less training on how to deal with protestors, or they see it as easier to mace folks that are peacefully protestors. Don't know. But it's an apparant trend.

 

At least we don't kill them with mace, like they do in that barbaric country up north

[octopuswithafez]

How about Gahndi?

 

I am ashamed of my generation. They stood up so they would not have to go to war but they continue to elect war mongers, liars, and then sit on their hands while thousands of people die needlessly.

 

The folks who bother to vote

 

 

voter turnout stats

[KaskadskyjKozak]

How about Gahndi?

 

I am ashamed of my generation. They stood up so they would not have to go to war but they continue to elect war mongers, liars, and then sit on their hands while thousands of people die needlessly.

 

The folks who bother to vote

 

 

voter turnout stats

 

well, gee, W was reelected with the highest voter turnout since Tricky Dick was first elected.

 

[prole]

I'm not arguing that every law enacted by the legislature is perfect, but that those who object to a given law should do so in a manner that doesn't involve taking the law into their own hands. The alternative is mob rule, and while this mob may be acting in accordance with your convictions, the next mob that gathers to take "direct aggressive action" may not.

 

Using the word mob is over the top. These were peaceful protestors (minus the several assholes). In the past if folks blocked traffic they were simply hauled off and arrested, which is the risk you take for any civil disobedience. Fair enough. But now there seems to be an increase in mace first ask questions later. Why mace a 20-year-old who is just sitting in the street, then chase after them with batons once they do start fleeing the mace? Maybe the cops are getting less training on how to deal with protestors, or they see it as easier to mace folks that are peacefully protestors. Don't know. But it's an apparant trend.

 

The use of the term "mob", "mob rule", etc. has a long history in anti-democratic thought. Here's a classic in the literature that explores this history.

[kevbone]

I hate property tax. it just seems anti-American that you can't own your land and be done with it. no no no, you HAVE to have an income to have the American dream.

 

I cant agree more.......

[tvashtarkatena]

Congress passed legislation in the '90s allowing greater transfer of military weapons, training, and tactics to police. The result is the riot control cop of today. 'Crowd control' tactics have become extremely provocative and violent. It's not uncommon for the police to outnumber the protesters nowadays, and nearly all of them carry fully automatic assault rifles. A favorite tactic, and one which the ACLU has repeated filed suit over, includes ordering protesters into an overly confined area (through the use of crowd control barriers) and attacking that part of the crowd that can no longer fit for noncompliance. They have increasingly used violence against peaceful protesters, including the elderly, indiscriminately. They often use 'non-lethal' weapons in a lethal manner; firing tear gas grenades point blank into protester's heads and bodies is unfortunately common.

 

A second popular tactic is to create 'protest zones' far from the target of the protest (President Bush during public addresses being a prime example), thus neutralizing the impact of the protest.

 

A third is revocation of protest permits at the last minute with no cause, thus denying protesters a basic constitutional right.

 

Make no mistake, the point is to intimidate peacefully protesting populace into cowing, not to maintain law and order.

[Choada_Boy]

War is essential to the economy. Get over it.

 

It might have made more sense to block shipments TO Iraq. Just a thought. Perhaps they were too busy blogging at the time...

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I hate property tax. it just seems anti-American that you can't own your land and be done with it. no no no, you HAVE to have an income to have the American dream.

 

I cant agree more.......

 

We agree on something.

[tvashtarkatena]

I hate property tax. it just seems anti-American that you can't own your land and be done with it. no no no, you HAVE to have an income to have the American dream.

 

I cant agree more.......

 

Why should you have the right to own land at all?

[octopuswithafez]

 

A second popular tactic is to create 'protest zones' far from the target of the protest (President Bush during public addresses being a prime example), thus neutralizing the impact of the protest.