Avg fleet MPG: Today verses the Model T

[tvashtarkatena]

According to the New Yorker, the Ford Model T got better than today's average of around 20 mpg for U.S. made vehicles.

 

Think about that next time you hear an auto executive argue against more ambitious fleet mileage standards because they're "too technically difficult to achieve"

[David Trippett]

does that take into account the weight of modern cars, the myriad other devices powered by the engine and the speeds driven on modern roads?

 

 

[archenemy]

The speeds and the stop and go probably have a huge effect.

[JayB]

It's not that they can't build them, it's that people don't want to buy them. Trying to move this one on the producer side instead of the consumer side is dumb. If this is the goal, then adding a $1 a gallon tax on retail sales of gasoline would make much more sense, and would spread the costs onto all of society instead of concentrating them on a single industry that merely caters to consumer preferences. You'd also have to exempt commercial users and build in tax credits for lower income people in order to avoid making this tax inflict unnecessary pain on poor people who need to drive and can't swing down and pick up a Prius on a whim.

 

CAFE standards make about as much sense as fighting obesity by penalizing grocery stores unless fruits and vegetables make up at least 40% of their sales volume.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

After the oil crisis of the '73 congress reduced the maximum speed limit on highways to 55 because cars get better mileage. Guess we could enact that popular legislation again, eh? A real "easy fix".

Gotta love the social engineering jackasses. Hey, let's reenact prohibition too, while we're at it.

 

[tvashtarkatena]

It's not that they can't build them, it's that people don't want to buy them. Trying to move this one on the producer side instead of the consumer side is dumb. If this is the goal, then adding a $1 a gallon tax on retail sales of gasoline would make much more sense, and would spread the costs onto all of society instead of concentrating them on a single industry that merely caters to consumer preferences. You'd also have to exempt commercial users and build in tax credits for lower income people in order to avoid making this tax inflict unnecessary pain on poor people who need to drive and can't swing down and pick up a Prius on a whim.

 

CAFE standards make about as much sense as fighting obesity by penalizing grocery stores unless fruits and vegetables make up at least 40% of their sales volume.

 

As usual, you're a fucking idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

Have you checked out the sales figures for Priuses lately?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

It's not that they can't build them, it's that people don't want to buy them. Trying to move this one on the producer side instead of the consumer side is dumb. If this is the goal, then adding a $1 a gallon tax on retail sales of gasoline would make much more sense, and would spread the costs onto all of society instead of concentrating them on a single industry that merely caters to consumer preferences. You'd also have to exempt commercial users and build in tax credits for lower income people in order to avoid making this tax inflict unnecessary pain on poor people who need to drive and can't swing down and pick up a Prius on a whim.

 

CAFE standards make about as much sense as fighting obesity by penalizing grocery stores unless fruits and vegetables make up at least 40% of their sales volume.

 

it doesn't penalize the grocery store... they pass the costs on to the consumer.

 

I benefited greatly from CAFE standards as my first car was above the average MPG, so the automaker sold it below cost (meaning I pay much less than I would have) to encourage enough purchasers to buy it to compensate for the SUVs it sold.

 

[tvashtarkatena]

After the oil crisis of the '73 congress reduced the maximum speed limit on highways to 55 because cars get better mileage. Guess we could enact that popular legislation again, eh? A real "easy fix".

Gotta love the social engineering jackasses. Hey, let's reenact prohibition too, while we're at it.

 

There are only 2 pea brains on this forum who could have come up a CAFE = Prohibition analogy. Congratulations.

[chucK]

How about $1/gallon tax on gas and use the tax revenue to give people rebates on their purchase of high-MPG cars?

 

Or even better, to get the protectionist vote, rebates on high-MPG American made vehicles.

 

OTOH, the way it works now (CAFE) probably subsidizes the high_MPG vehicles because the car manufacturer is probably forced to lower the price of the high-MPG's to make more sales and thus probably raises the prices of the low-MPG's to compensate. So that model doesn't seem as terrible as Jay suggests (might work in his grocery store example even!). The kicker though is that the SUV's are exempt from the CAFE standards (or in another class or something) because they are consider "light trucks" (I think, correct me if I'm wrong).

[KaskadskyjKozak]

OTOH, the way it works now (CAFE) probably subsidizes the high_MPG vehicles because the car manufacturer is probably forced to lower the price of the high-MPG's to make more sales and thus probably raises the prices of the low-MPG's to compensate.

 

Yes, exactly.

 

And f**k new taxes.

 

[tvashtarkatena]

How about $1/gallon tax on gas and use the tax revenue to give people rebates on their purchase of high-MPG cars?

 

Or even better, to get the protectionist vote, rebates on high-MPG American made vehicles.

 

OTOH, the way it works now (CAFE) probably subsidizes the high_MPG vehicles because the car manufacturer is probably forced to lower the price of the high-MPG's to make more sales and thus probably raises the prices of the low-MPG's to compensate.

 

Even better. The result for society is the same. If some rich blowhards want to subsidize my high mileage vehicle, and the environment (and our foreign policy) benefit as a result, I'm all for it.

[tvashtarkatena]

I'm for much higher gas taxes to reduce traffic and associated traffic infrastructure costs as well as to pay for mass transit, bike lanes, and tax breaks on high mileage vehicles, particularly of the two wheeled variety (which further reduce traffic burdens, and don't have the manufacturing energy inputs required for Priuses and the like).

 

Americans have not yet begun to seriously cut back on driving and thus CO2 emissions. We can also no longer afford to maintain our installed base of roadways, so building more doesn't make any sense. Since our survival (the climate) is at stake, it's time to hit the American public where it counts the most: our wallets. Call it the 'invisible back hand', if you will.

[JayB]

It's not that they can't build them, it's that people don't want to buy them. Trying to move this one on the producer side instead of the consumer side is dumb. If this is the goal, then adding a $1 a gallon tax on retail sales of gasoline would make much more sense, and would spread the costs onto all of society instead of concentrating them on a single industry that merely caters to consumer preferences. You'd also have to exempt commercial users and build in tax credits for lower income people in order to avoid making this tax inflict unnecessary pain on poor people who need to drive and can't swing down and pick up a Prius on a whim.

 

CAFE standards make about as much sense as fighting obesity by penalizing grocery stores unless fruits and vegetables make up at least 40% of their sales volume.

 

As usual, you're a fucking idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

Have you checked out the sales figures for Priuses lately?

 

Another good argument. You're on a roll.

 

Have you checked the figures for Prius's and/or economy cars as a total of all non-commercial vehicle sales?

 

Improvements in technology enable people to choose a vehicle that gets the same mileage, with more power, and this is what most people have chosen to do instead of opting for the Geo-Metro/Dodge Neon. If fuel prices remain at present levels, or go up considerably, then consumer preferences may change and these changes may manifest themselves significant changes in vehicle preferences.

 

 

[JayB]

I'm for much higher gas taxes to reduce traffic and associated traffic infrastructure costs as well as to pay for mass transit, bike lanes, and tax breaks on high mileage vehicles, particularly of the two wheeled variety (which further reduce traffic burdens, and don't have the manufacturing energy inputs required for Priuses and the like).

 

Americans have not yet begun to seriously cut back on driving and thus CO2 emissions. We can also no longer afford to maintain our installed base of roadways, so building more doesn't make any sense. Since our survival (the climate) is at stake, it's time to hit the American public where it counts the most: our wallets. Call it the 'invisible back hand', if you will.

 

What percentage of total CO2 emissions in the US comes from non-commercial vehicles versus residential power consumption?

[Crux]

It's not that they can't build them, it's that people don't want to buy them. Trying to move this one on the producer side instead of the consumer side is dumb. If this is the goal, then adding a $1 a gallon tax on retail sales of gasoline would make much more sense, and would spread the costs onto all of society instead of concentrating them on a single industry that merely caters to consumer preferences. You'd also have to exempt commercial users and build in tax credits for lower income people in order to avoid making this tax inflict unnecessary pain on poor people who need to drive and can't swing down and pick up a Prius on a whim.

 

CAFE standards make about as much sense as fighting obesity by penalizing grocery stores unless fruits and vegetables make up at least 40% of their sales volume.

 

Good point there. Human nutrition and automotive fuel efficiency are pretty much the same thing. In fact, I drink far less gasoline today, compared to the past, and it's really improved the mileage my bicycle gets. No equivocation here at all.

[tvashtarkatena]

Hybrid sales: another record setting year.

 

Vehicular greenhouse gas emissions account for 40% of the total in California (which is probably representative of the country as a whole). 40% of that, or 16% of total emissions, come from residential vehicles.

 

Commercial vehicles are often the first to take advantage of carbon neutral or fuel efficiency technologies for cost reduction, however, so technical advances made in the residential sector also carry over to the industrial and public, and visa versa.

 

Vehicle emissions in California

 

You seem to be defending a do nothing approach (as you usually do) in the transportation sector because it doesn't constitute 100% of all emissions; a ridiculous stance on its face. Transportation is a significant contributor to global warming, to be sure, but arguing for long needed reductions in this sector does not imply ignoring other sectors. It is just a part of an overall all plan to reduce emissions in every major sector.

 

Duh.

Edited November 8, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[tomtom]

Honda Motor Co., which is discontinuing the hybrid version of the Accord sedan because of weak sales ...

[tvashtarkatena]

Honda Motor Co., which is discontinuing the hybrid version of the Accord sedan because of weak sales ...

 

Yeah, Honda abandoned any further development of that vehicle about 5 years ago, so it died in the market place.

 

Guess you didn't get the memo.

 

Fuckin' moron.

Edited November 8, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[JayB]

Hybrid sales: another record setting year.

 

 

 

[ClimbingPanther]

tvash, did you forget your meds today?

[Jim]

The assumption that market forces will somehow, sooner or later, deal with improvement of gas milage is false. Look at the wonderful job the marketplace has done to date regarding any type of environmental issue where the true costs are spread over the wider social fabric. Emissions, water pollution, etc. It will take government intervention to move forward. Of course they will yelp. Gotta keep paying those bonuses to the executive level for doing nothing.

 

Raise the CAFE standards by at least 20% over 5 yrs, surcharges for the gas guzzlers. You just have to pay the premium.

[ClimbingPanther]

one word:

rationing

[JayB]

Hybrid sales: another record setting year.

 

Vehicular greenhouse gas emissions account for 40% of the total in California (which is probably representative of the country as a whole). 40% of that, or 16% of total emissions, come from residential vehicles.

 

Commercial vehicles are often the first to take advantage of carbon neutral or fuel efficiency technologies for cost reduction, however, so technical advances made in the residential sector also carry over to the industrial and public, and visa versa.

 

Vehicle emissions in California

 

You seem to be defending a do nothing approach (as you usually do) in the transportation sector because it doesn't constitute 100% of all emissions; a ridiculous stance on its face. Transportation is a significant contributor to global warming, to be sure, but arguing for long needed reductions in this sector does not imply ignoring other sectors. It is just a part of an overall all plan to reduce emissions in every major sector.

 

Duh.

 

Compare total C02 emissions from non-commercial vehicles to total C02 emissions from residential power consumption.

 

Then compare the number of keystrokes that you've expended harping on SUV owners versus owners of poorly insulated homes, etc.

 

Ignoring other sectors may not be implied, but it's certainly what you and your fellow travelers have done.

[JayB]

The assumption that market forces will somehow, sooner or later, deal with improvement of gas milage is false. Look at the wonderful job the marketplace has done to date regarding any type of environmental issue where the true costs are spread over the wider social fabric. Emissions, water pollution, etc. It will take government intervention to move forward. Of course they will yelp. Gotta keep paying those bonuses to the executive level for doing nothing.

 

Raise the CAFE standards by at least 20% over 5 yrs, surcharges for the gas guzzlers. You just have to pay the premium.

 

The people who pay the most for this will be your friends in the UAW.

[rob]

Tear it all down.