letsroll Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 Yeah, what Frank said, except for the call me part, don't call me. That place is already too overdeveloped for a secret crag. My opinion only here. Your results may vary. Well rather than just telling me what to do are you ready to put your money where your mouth is? I fully intend to work on the far side trail. btw, that trail is there, it needs to be made gentler. I am speaking from 35+ years of f*ing with such things, it would be easier to touch up the far side trail. Really! Trust me Letsroll, I'm not just blowing hot air -ask any one who knows me. Seriously. I would love to have your help since this will be the first time for me. My schedual is about to open up with the end of cross country season and willing to meet you out there for ideas. My thinking I would practice on the closest trail to work out the bugs before tackling regrading the other. However I just got the fact that you would want that trail completely eleminated, I gather to eliminate traffic or restrict traffic to that of climbers only. I understand the thinking but don't think it will work now. Too many people have come that way rather from the farside and I think you would have a tough time eliminating that trail. When the farside is ready for traffic I am willing to give the nearside trail elimination a go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Yeah, what Frank said, except for the call me part, don't call me. That place is already too overdeveloped for a secret crag. My opinion only here. Your results may vary. Well rather than just telling me what to do are you ready to put your money where your mouth is? I fully intend to work on the far side trail. btw, that trail is there, it needs to be made gentler. I am speaking from 35+ years of f*ing with such things, it would be easier to touch up the far side trail. Really! Trust me Letsroll, I'm not just blowing hot air -ask any one who knows me. Seriously. I would love to have your help since this will be the first time for me. My schedual is about to open up with the end of cross country season and willing to meet you out there for ideas. My thinking I would practice on the closest trail to work out the bugs before tackling regrading the other. However I just got the fact that you would want that trail completely eleminated, I gather to eliminate traffic or restrict traffic to that of climbers only. I understand the thinking but don't think it will work now. Too many people have come that way rather from the farside and I think you would have a tough time eliminating that trail. When the farside is ready for traffic I am willing to give the nearside trail elimination a go. letsroll You drinkin wine too? I said [font:Arial Black]don't [/font]call me:-) Look, I don't promise much, but I'm about 100 percent deliverin on it when I do. If you need help, and you need advice, and you absolutely need ME, I'll be there for ya. But not for long, as I have worked on that trail, and when the flakes fly I'll be play'in in the snow with the lad and Ujahn: Like all the frikkan time. Sometimes we'll swing by here or Pete's to get a short burn for the arms when the legs are already Pwn'ed, but usually I'm ready for a nap after skiing. I have 4 hot pairs of brand new skiis in the basement. 4 (four) - can't.... not ......rip...arrrrhhhhhhrrg ! I'm not saying get rid of the existing trail. I'm saying that there are 2 (that's TWO) trails right now and that the far side one is the one that will drastically benefit the area, it needs NO wood or major supports or efforts, just needs to be graded better AND it will be easier to fix. Thats all I'm saying! Go look at the far side trail, have you even seen it? All will become clear. Good luck, and remember, do [font:Arial Black]NOT[/font] call me, unless you[font:Arial Black] really [/font]need me. It's like calling on Superman that way. Once you've tweaked the far side trail, everytime you roll down it you'll go ahhhhh! and feel complete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Heres the full post. Ivan, I took care of it last year. Top and bottom. That tree Kev and those folks yanked down was re-bushing and I nuked it. I will say that the top needs to be hit with roundup again. That is, if we can get permission from "Clif" who doesn't want to pull it, but doesn't want to have it sprayed by anyone else. Secret? Maybe not....but the access issue is not completely resolved so.......try your best to carpool and keep the crowds down….thanks…..and no accidents………if you can help it. K This is why I said to do the trail on the far side by the other parking area where NO one parks! BUT EVIDENTLY NO ONE GIVES A FU*K WHAT I SAY OR THINK!!!!!!!!! btw, that trail is there, it needs to be made gentler. I am speaking from 35+ years of f*ing with such things, it would be easier to touch up the far side trail. Really! Trust me Letsroll, I'm not just blowing hot air -ask any one who knows me. Seriously. Peter: Kevbone would be a good dude to hang with here for you and he'll give good belay as well as an interesting running dialog. Really. He's a good dude and great company and the folks who give him grief about his postings on this site just don't know him. Joseph is someone else who you should contact to take a ride up Beacon too. Both of them have different real personnas that don't gibe with their online personalities. Joseph in particular, has facial expressions in person (like smiling) that do not get seen in print here. Bone in full on spray mode below with red rope bag, "Clif" warming up to belay me and we're in both full on geriatric mode FA of ... . I forget what those dudes named it....Jimmy O has a route list. Kev, Ujhan and I went and rap/cleaned your route off that we trashed. It was pretty clean...I took the right and he took the left. The route we did that day still needs to be cleaned and I will do it this winter when my other play areas are closed. Oh...Larry named it "Before the Storm", cause after I topped out and yelled down "off belay", he was down there dicking around fooooevvver, while I'm tied off to a fir tree watching this massive squall head right towards us from across the Colombia River. So I yell down to slow Ethel there [font:Arial Black]Hey dude, it's starting to rain up here." [/font] Larry yells back " [font:Arial Black]Yeah? It is down here too! [/font] Cracked me up! Ya gotta love the guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 ps, everyone knows that I have more hair than that picture shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letsroll Posted October 20, 2007 Author Share Posted October 20, 2007 I see the road ths is going going down. yes I have seen the farside trail. Hiked it twice and thought the same thing that it needs to be regraded. The end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letsroll Posted October 20, 2007 Author Share Posted October 20, 2007 lol hair....lol...lack of...no really I have...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 same place where "Extreeeeeeeeme squeeze job at a local PDX/Van crag." ALso after looking at that line, are we grid bolting there now? If we are then scratch my statement about not being able to put up new routes Is it still there? The Extreeeeeemmeee squeeze job? Not for much longer. And not that is not an excuse to start grid bolting other horrible routes. That trail is in need…..since the popularity is getting out of hand, the trail keeps falling down the hill. All involved with development has helped out at one time or another with the trail. But, every year it gets worse and worse. The best time to fix it is in the winter when the ground is soft. Summer is a bitch to dig into ground out there. Thanks in advance for all your work…..PM me and let me know when….I will try to make it to help out….I could potentially get others to help as well. I've got an idea that will save everybody much trouble. Chop all the bolts! Then the popularity of the spot takes a nosedive and Mother Nature will mend the trail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 I've got an idea that will save everybody much trouble. Chop all the bolts! Then the popularity of the spot takes a nosedive and Mother Nature will mend the trail. Ah....what a purist! So you would rather have little to no climbing? Because that is what you would have if you went chop happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Hey whippersnapper, I have a question for you. Before sport climbing, with its bolt trails, its crowds of limp-wristed hangdoggers and all of the impact attendant thereto.....did climbing exist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 ahhh, rainy saturday morning existentialism! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Hey whippersnapper, I have a question for you. Before sport climbing, with its bolt trails, its crowds of limp-wristed hangdoggers and all of the impact attendant thereto.....did climbing exist? It sure did exist.....but really only crack climbing.....so if there is no cracks to place gear....AT ALL....then you would prefer not to have climbing at all....right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 uhhh...that's not exactly true...check out east coast climbing, or tuolome, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 Soloing does not count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 you don't get out much, do you? there's TONS of trad protected FACE climbing out there...and a lot of it isn't dangerous... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 you don't get out much, do you? there's TONS of trad protected FACE climbing out there...and a lot of it isn't dangerous... Yep, like most of the Gunks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 ALso after looking at that line, are we grid bolting there now? If we are then scratch my statement about not being able to put up new routes Don't poach the projected potential squeeze jobs I'm going to do this winter and you'll be fine. You will recognize them by the fact that there are currently no bolts there. yet ______________________________________________________________ BTW, Pope, I need one of these babies. Maybe we can co-ordinate this and I can do a demo of my new tool for you out this way. I think it's time for a change up pitch, so in the spirit of fun and friendship, when it gets here I will be naming my new tool "The Pope". Hmmm...maybe "Dawg" sounds better. .......or "squeezejob"....awesome name. Wait, no can do bubba, I have that slated to be a route name real soon right near where that "Please remove these bolts" sign is right now. Hey, maybe that the name of that new route those guys squeezed in there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 there's TONS of trad protected FACE climbing out there...and a lot of it isn't dangerous... I agree.....you are missing my point. At this particular place there are face climbs that have NO GEAR PLACEMENTS AT ALL. Hence....the bolts.... The question is (and no one has answered this yet).....would you rather have no climbing at all, because that is what you would have if I followed popes standard. Not including top roping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Never been there. Looks kind of stupid. I'd rather see no climbing than sport climbing. Just don't go around suggesting those are the only options. There's top roping, free soloing and bolt protected climbing established on lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 The question is (and no one has answered this yet).....would you rather have no climbing at all, because that is what you would have if I followed popes standard. Not including top roping. I'D RATHER SEE NO CLIMBING AT ALL. Top-rope it, place your ugly bolt on lead if you can ethically and environmentally justify it, otherwise....just leave it alone. Some people will see you as progressive and might even admire you in the future, because when the pendulum swings, and it will, "sport-climbing" will be condemned as the Dark-Age, selfish, self-deluding, environmental travesty that it is. P.S...your comment above about crack-climbing before sport-"climbing" is completely ridiculous. Here's something "profound" I tell some of my history students: "the world did not begin the day you were born". Think about it. Learn a little climbing/mountaineering history (especially pre-1980)and you will see that it's was alive and vibrant long before "sport-climbing" somehow became acceptable in the U.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Don't poach the projected potential squeeze jobs I'm going to do this winter and you'll be fine. You will recognize them by the fact that there are currently no bolts there. yet BTW, Pope, I need one of these babies. Maybe we can co-ordinate this and I can do a demo of my new tool for you out this way. I think it's time for a change up pitch, so in the spirit of fun and friendship, when it gets here I will be naming my new tool "The Pope". Hmmm...maybe "Dawg" sounds better. Dude...I won't even try to speculate why you chose to write that nor why you thought it was clever. You might think that our (environmental/ethical) opinions are a joke....but you're smart enough and been around long enough to understand the issues and our perspective of it. Enjoy your drill...why not put it to better use putting an addition onto your house or some other PRIVATE useful purpose that won't disgrace PUBLIC land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirp Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Don't poach the projected potential squeeze jobs I'm going to do this winter and you'll be fine. You will recognize them by the fact that there are currently no bolts there. yet BTW, Pope, I need one of these babies. Maybe we can co-ordinate this and I can do a demo of my new tool for you out this way. I think it's time for a change up pitch, so in the spirit of fun and friendship, when it gets here I will be naming my new tool "The Pope". Hmmm...maybe "Dawg" sounds better. Dude...I won't even try to speculate why you chose to write that nor why you thought it was clever. You might think that our (environmental/ethical) opinions are a joke....but you're smart enough and been around long enough to understand the issues and our perspective of it. Enjoy your drill...why not put it to better use putting an addition onto your house or some other PRIVATE useful purpose that won't disgrace PUBLIC land. Don, I gotta say I fucking respect you but when it comes to climbing you just dont get it. This is 2007, cmon dude get with the master plan. I expected alot more out of you for the "end of days" period. Get ready to write a note to your descendents to examine the values of the "community" just prior to your societies demise. Welcome to your doom brah, grab a cold one and savor the lightshow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Yo Dwayner: Read a little history and you will find that since rock climbing emerged as a sport apart from mountain climbing there has been a general trend where each successive generation's improvements are criticized by the prior. Roped belaying was decried by some in the early 20th century, pitons in the 20's, aid climbing in the 50's, and even cams were said by some to be cheating when they came out in the '70's. Ths doesn't necessarily mean that sport climbing is the pinnacle of development, and it could even be read to suggest you and your pal Pope mayt be right that we could next see via ferrata rigs on boulders, but your little history lesson is a little incomplete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Never been there. Looks kind of stupid. I'd rather see no climbing than sport climbing. Just don't go around suggesting those are the only options. Ah….now we are getting somewhere…….. So this place we are talking about has mixed climbing. There are only 10-12 pure sport climbs out of about 60 routes……5 climbs or so have one piece of gear in them…..we have taken flack for this but hold our (the original developers) ground stating we can not bring ourselves to blatantly place a bolt right next to a perfect gear placement. Not that you care about this…..but …… There's top roping, Top roping there…..you would have to spend a lot of time hiking around in poison oak just to top rope off a tree that is not even close to the edge of the cliff…..that sounds fun….why do it? So pope can sleep at night knowing his integrity is still in tact….right! free soloing Not all of us are as bold as you my friend! bolt protected climbing established on lead. Here is the best part of the conversation……(I say conversation because I have yet to see Pee wee Herman…..eh Dwayner). It is my personal opinion that the majority of bolt protected climbs established on lead that I have been on have been completely put up irresponsibly. Do you know why they (the forefathers of climbing) did it like that? Not because it was the “bold” thing to do….but because they did not know better. Of course one can choose to go out tomorrow and bolt on lead….that is fine. But why ride a horse to the crag why you can ride in a car…..get with the times boys…..I do admit I have been on some ridiculous bolted climbs…..that is not the case with this crag. Come down and take a peak, come climbing….I would love to show you around…..for what it is….its pretty neat…..bring your rack…..you will need it. It is a choice you make….I believe as a route setter, I have a responsibility to those who will climb the route after me. I would hate to hear about people getting hurt on a route I put up because it did not protect adequately. You might be able to sleep at night with this on your conscience, but I could not. I know…..your next response will be “don’t dumb it down to your level”. But I put the climb up…..so that level is for me to decide…..if you don’t like it…..stay in Seattle. I disagree with you about no climbing at all. I would rather have climbing than no climbing……I don’t climb indoors anymore….so this is what I got….I think we did a good job developing this place…..I was serious….come on down and let’s go climbing. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Top-rope it, place your ugly bolt on lead if you can ethically and environmentally “Environmentally”? Do you drive a car? Nuff said. P.S...your comment above about crack-climbing before sport-"climbing" is completely ridiculous. I am not following you here on this one….. Crack climbing did come before sport……please clarify your comment….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Don, I gotta say I f*cking respect you but when it comes to climbing you just dont get it. This is 2007, cmon dude get with the master plan. I expected alot more out of you for the "end of days" period. Get ready to write a note to your descendents to examine the values of the "community" just prior to your societies demise. Welcome to your doom brah, grab a cold one and savor the lightshow! Wasn’t aware that you’ve thrown in the towel already. It explains a lot. Yo Dwayner: Read a little history and you will find that since rock climbing emerged as a sport apart from mountain climbing there has been a general trend where each successive generation's improvements are criticized by the prior. Roped belaying was decried by some in the early 20th century, pitons in the 20's, aid climbing in the 50's, and even cams were said by some to be cheating when they came out in the '70's. This doesn't necessarily mean that sport climbing is the pinnacle of development, and it could even be read to suggest you and your pal Pope may be right that we could next see via ferrata rigs on boulders, but your little history lesson is a little incomplete. I’ve read plenty of history and I wasn’t trying to be complete. I find your comments irrelevant to the present day…sport climbing is no longer an innovation. In my opinion, it was bogus then and it’s still bogus…regardless of whether “roped belaying was decried by some in the early 20th century”. There is nothing to suggest that “climbing” is on some sort of progressive evolutionary path…sport-climbing, in my opinion, is an example of “devolution”. Nor does widespread acceptance necessarily make it correct. Top roping there…..you would have to spend a lot of time hiking around in poison oak just to top rope off a tree that is not even close to the edge of the cliff…..that sounds fun….why do it? Sounds like you’re lazy…that’s what a lot of sport-climbing seems to be about…CONVENIENCE. Drill the crap out of the rock and leave trails of closely-spaced permanent alterations because IT”S MORE FUN and easier than the alternatives that leave less impact. Here is the best part of the conversation……(I say conversation because I have yet to see Pee wee Herman…..eh Dwayner). No, “Pee-Wee Herman” is reserved as a comical response to immature taunts by guys like you. It is my personal opinion that the majority of bolt protected climbs established on lead that I have been on have been completely put up irresponsibly. Do you know why they (the forefathers of climbing) did it like that? Not because it was the “bold” thing to do….but because they did not know better. Nonsense…they believed that one should ascend…that is, climb from the bottom up….not rappel down and set your anchors. It could have been done much safer and easier that way, even if drilled by hand…but it was a choice. Isn’t that what climbing is all about? Ascent? Of course one can choose to go out tomorrow and bolt on lead….that is fine. But why ride a horse to the crag why you can ride in a car…..get with the times boys. Two words from my comments above…”lazy”, “ascent”. “Come down and take a peak, come climbing….I would love to show you around ….if you don’t like it…..stay in Seattle. What a curious thing to say. Neither pope nor I live in Seattle and I certainly wouldn’t want to stay there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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