human powered approaches vs heli, planes, skidoos

[Buckaroo]

It's not just a comparison of fuel mileage with helicopters vs cars. It's a comparison of pollution. Copters have no pollution controls. With the current technology a copter pollutes about 100 times as much as a car per a given amount of fuel used. IMHO copters should only be used when other alternatives have been exhausted. IE alternate climbs and or alternate approach methods. Even then it's a questionable exercise.

 

Comparing organic farming and conventional. It's not just the initial direct costs that should be compared but the long term indirect ones. In the long term conventional farming is much more expensive considering pollution, destruction of habitat, and health problems caused by chemical use.

 

Concerning man's affect on the environment, it's not just global warming. It's pollution, habitat destruction, the ozone layer, GMO's etc.

 

We are in the middle of a species die-off. The main difference from previous die-offs, besides that this one is man made, is that the conditions allowing recovery are also more damaged this time around.

 

Asking why conventional farms don't turn to organic if the profit is there. It's because they are already heavily invested and would have to re-invest. Just like the oil companies, there are viable alternatives, and a big investment would probably yield even more. Some sources say H20 has even been efficiently split. Of course you can imagine the richest companies on earth(big oil), already heavily invested, are going to suppress this if it means more investment and possibly less profits.

[David Trippett]

The main difference from previous die-offs, besides that this one is man made, is that the conditions allowing recovery are also more damaged this time around.

 

Climbers using helicopters for approaches is a MAJOR source of atmospheric carbon emissions.

 

 

There are two "classes" of extinctions, intrinsic and extrinsic, at least two of the previous 5 major extinction events have had intrinsic causes and at least one may be a combination of the two.

 

I am just wondering exactly what you mean by the conditions allowing recovery are damaged? What does that mean?

 

The Permian/Triassic extinction, in which 90% of living things on this planet died off at the species level (Kingdom>Phylum>Class>Order>Family>Genus>Species.....as Taxonomic refresher) was a event unparalleled in earth history....a concerted effort would need to be made by humans, such as releasing the global nuclear arsenal at well spaced intervals about the planet, to even come close to the destruction of the P-T extinction. Following this extinction, was one of the largest proliferations and flourishings of new organisms...as there was a sudden vacancy of niches. Extinction, although unsavoury, is a needed and important part of the history and development of all things that have and will live on this particular planet. Without a series of events, which include several extinctions, we would not be here.

 

In terms of the planets ability to recover, certain types of extinctions may require more or less time, depending on the nature of the perturbation....that's all. Given the time scales the planet has to play with....it's all a drop in the bucket.

 

"Anthrochronocentrism", as I have termed this problem, is yet another example of human arrogance.

 

 

[dirtbagathlete]

When you say "anthrochronocentrism," are you referring to the same overall theme that you wrote about at the bottom of page 4? I'm curious because I am considering answering the questions you asked.

[cj001f]

 

I agree, but it seems like by definition these values are typically not quite as robust in the average multi-year or multi-generational welfare recipient that might otherwise make a good candidate for farm labor.

 

'It seems, by definition'? Just how many of these folks to you actually know, anyway? Pretty general statement without much first hand experience, it seems to me. 'Conventional wisdom' rides again.

 

Heh. It's more amusing how quickly money corrupts those values as a quick drive through Greenwich will show

[Bigtree]

...In my opinion, there is a demon lurking among alpine climbers and ski mountaineers...Personally, I look up to the people who cram their friends into a subaru or whatever and make things happen on a shoestring budget...

 

Dirtbagathelete, thank goodness we both live in countries where we have the freedom to express our respective opinions, however divergent they may be.

 

Perhaps you think we should all take an oath of poverty and get around like these fellows?

 

Then again, maybe you think that this is a more appropriate mode of transportation for a fellow like yourself?:

 

 

 

[David Trippett]

When you say "anthrochronocentrism," are you referring to the same overall theme that you wrote about at the bottom of page 4? I'm curious because I am considering answering the questions you asked.

 

 

Well please do, but not if your looking for a fight.

 

The internet is a poor forum for debate and so often, the nuances of a good conversation are lost ...so, as an aside, I'm not so enamoured with these ideas that I won't listen keenly to others opinions. My questions are honest and posed with the goal of creative free-thinking....with a dash of rascal thrown in for good measure.

 

I am and have always been a believer, games aside, in mankind and that "Eden" is NOW. Mankind must be ruthlessly selfish if it wants to survive, there is no one out there looking out for us.

 

I just find it curious that WE on one hand can talk about saving the planet for the "good" of the earth, when it's neither bad nor good; or talk about the earth not "recovering", when it will at SOME rate...

 

...These dualistic thought patterns are traps(not that I am, by any means, free of them). I think that sort of thinking is a slippery slope, the same sort that puts animals in zoos, and should be removed from the collective mind.

 

So, why should I lament the loss of the Polar Bear over say that of the Mastodon or the Rugose Coral or the Trilobites? Each species that has lived or will lived has been part of an subtle and intricate tapestry of evolutionary development that has led up to now, just as the things living today will some how be the precursors to some other forms of life.

 

The Universe is a dangerous place, and bad things happen to good critters...the most I can hope is to transcend and free myself from the kinds of thinking that trap me in the cycle. It is easy to change the things you think, but how prepared are we to critically examine the WAY we think?

 

It seems to me that the history of our species can be summed up in a few tired revolving patterns of thinking, that lead to the same dead-ends.

 

As I stated before, my opinion may be confused as fatalistic, it's not. I believe in the power of focused non-effort.

 

Excuse my metaphysical ramblings.

[cj001f]

I am and have always been a believer, games aside, in mankind and that "Eden" is NOW. Mankind must be ruthlessly selfish if it wants to survive, there is no one out there looking out for us.

 

or talk about the earth not "recovering", when it will at SOME rate...

 

methinks you have some optimistic religion you subscribe to as the basis for your arguments. Their are many things on this planet that will not exist again in the same form if our current progress is sustained. Judging by biological history they will never exist again

 

Some planet may exist in the future. It might be a nice planet. But it will be a planet altered by mankind.

[David Trippett]

I am and have always been a believer, games aside, in mankind and that "Eden" is NOW. Mankind must be ruthlessly selfish if it wants to survive, there is no one out there looking out for us.

 

or talk about the earth not "recovering", when it will at SOME rate...

 

methinks you have some optimistic religion you subscribe to as the basis for your arguments. Their are many things on this planet that will not exist again in the same form if our current progress is sustained. Judging by biological history they will never exist again

 

Some planet may exist in the future. It might be a nice planet. But it will be a planet altered by mankind.

 

so what?

 

what's the sound of one hand clapping?

[dirtbagathlete]

avitripp,

 

What I see between the lines is somewhat similar to what I see in Tibetan Buddhism. The concept of a person stopping their conscious or rational thinking, and truly being the essence of God.

 

I have often wondered if humans are meant to be burning petroleum at this point in time. Is this all just part of the story that is being orchestrated by the unseen intelligence running the Universe? But then the caustic smell of gasoline, raw or combusted, brings me back to my version of reality.

 

The contrast between nature and humans also raises doubts in my mind. I have had the honor of seeing a cougar cruising slowly alongside a creek in the wilderness- contrast this with that chemical plant by the the second narrows bridge.

 

Sure it could be part of the story; although as humans we have the ability to be discussing this sort of thing amongst ourselves. I can't speak for dinosaurs, or other extinct life forms, but it seems to me that this is the difference with humans. With the knowledge available to us; it seems that humans are the one life form that has progressed to the point, that we do more than just survive (jazz, art, climbers.)

 

This is really the essence of my thinking. I like the human form. Look at the mechanics of a knee, or the spectacle of our bodies in general. Or how about the climber moving steadily, powerfully, up a beautiful feature; their mind filled only with the scenery and movement. How about the back country skier traversing across a couloir at speed, their unique view of the fall line, the authority of a solid pole plant, the free fall between turns. We have a good thing going here, and it makes sense to me to try and prolong it as long as possible; within the realm of the universe/geologic time frame. It is also important (to me) to prolong it with a high quality of life. This would be the direct answer to "why give a rat's ass." Quality of water, quality of air, and temperatures that work for humans and our foods.

 

Which brings me back to Buddhism. There is a lot to be learned from those concepts. For example: compassion and selfishness. The two words alone are reason enough for one to minimize their impact, as they pass through this reality.

 

However, I've never liked the passive concept of just letting things happen. It seems like there is just too much natural evil in the human mind. Accessing the will and moving forth with principles that are more positive, seems like a better way. Who says these principle are the "right way" and where do they come from? I don't know, but I do know what it feels like to be affected by evil; and ultimately what keeps this human going is: the beauty of snow dusted dark rock interlaced with spider lines of cold bombproof ice. Not to mention what it feels like to be way, way out there and to see the Earth in it's natural state. I, for one, have been tormented about hurting the Earth ever since.

 

 

 

[Buckaroo]

""Climbers using helicopters for approaches is a MAJOR source of atmospheric carbon emissions.""

 

Climbing generally leads you to appreciate the outdoors. If so then you should be somewhat environmentally conscious. If so it should somewhat bother you to dump the untreated soot from 50 gallons of burned gas into the atmosphere. Not to mention the weak ethics of shortcutting an approach.

 

""I am just wondering exactly what you mean by the conditions allowing recovery are damaged? What does that mean? ""

 

It's not really scientific, it's just a feeling I have. Like GMO's that don't produce seeds somehow getting into the gene pool of all the plants, far fetched I know. Or like something that kills all the bees and then all the pollinating insects. Or some newly produced chemical that destroys the ozone but through a delayed process or interval so it doesn't get spotted at first until it's too late.

 

"" Extinction, although unsavoury, is a needed and important part of the history and development of all things ...""

 

suppose I have to agree

 

""In terms of the planets ability to recover, certain types of extinctions may require more or less time, depending on the nature of the perturbation....that's all. Given the time scales the planet has to play with....it's all a drop in the bucket.""

 

Agree, especially when you see how fast the plants take over the gravel driveway.

 

"Anthrochronocentrism",

 

Anthropology Chrono(time) Centrism. So we think man's history, and the nano-second timeframe of that history are all important and everything else revolves around us?

 

""The internet is a poor forum for debate and so often, ""

 

Not necessarily, it's keeps a near permanent record, one can't deny what one has said. It allows multiple participants in diverse locations and times. It also provides a documentary source to back up claims and assertions.

 

""the nuances of a good conversation are lost ""

 

Possibly, unless you are a foot-in-mouth type person who needs the time it takes to type and read something before posting to avoid saying dumb things.

 

"" Mankind must be ruthlessly selfish if it wants to survive,""

 

to a certain extent,... within reason, make sure the side effects of your survival actions don't put a hole in the boat you're floating in.

 

""...saving the planet for the "good" of the earth, ....I think that sort of thinking is a slippery slope, the same sort that puts animals in zoos, and should be removed from the collective mind."""

 

I think more along the lines of saving the bald eagle from an unnatural chemical.

 

""So, why should I lament the loss of the Polar Bear over say that of the Mastodon or the Rugose Coral or the Trilobites?""

 

Yes it surely should be lamented if it was caused by greed, neglect, or selfishness and not natural process.

 

""It seems to me that the history of our species can be summed up in a few tired revolving patterns of thinking, that lead to the same dead-ends. ""

 

Yeah, like that other species and even the planet are somehow disposable and that our actions on most every level don't really have an affect.

 

""I believe in the power of focused non-effort.""

 

doing nothing but with a perfect timing, duration and intensity

 

""Excuse my metaphysical ramblings.""

 

no worries mate

 

[tvashtarkatena]

This discussion has attained Total Ah! Woah-ness....

 

 

 

 

 

[pink]

i hope this thread doesn't evolve into some sort of mass suicide

[Buckaroo]

""I have often wondered if humans are meant to be burning petroleum at this point in time.""

 

this is possible. So much energy concentrated and stored. When you look at the 200 mil years it took for the oil producing deposits to be laid down during the Carboniferous and the fact that almost half of that energy has been released in barely 100 years. Maybe we are avoiding a periodic ice age that would push all our cities into the sea and thus conflict with our necessary evolution.

 

""With the knowledge available to us; it seems that humans are the one life form that has progressed to the point, that we do more than just survive (jazz, art, climbers.)""

 

but I'm disappointed that we are not evolving, or maybe I'm just impatient that it's not fast enough. We seem to be making the same mistakes over and over`

 

""We have a good thing going here, and it makes sense to me to try and prolong it as long as possible; within the realm of the universe/geologic time frame. It is also important (to me) to prolong it with a high quality of life.""

 

The rub comes when too many people want this level of quality, or quantity of quality. There's not enough resources for everyone on the planet to have a burger every day, or for everyone to have a car to drive around.

 

"" Not to mention what it feels like to be way, way out there and to see the Earth in it's natural state.""

 

agree, my special thing is the old trees. Like the old growth in this state and into Canada, or the Bristlecone pines in the high Sierra....

 

 

 

 

 

[Valid ASB]

"my cats breath smells like cat food".....those are wise words spoken from a wise man.

[Dechristo]

d'you folks resolve sumpin?

 

 

will you splain it to me?

 

 

[cj001f]

so what?

 

what's the sound of one hand clapping?

 

don't worry, I laugh at what you write too

[AlpineK]

This whole discussion has gotten me totally psyched to hop on a heli in Pemberton next spring.

[tvashtarkatena]

I might just rent a whole Sea Knight for a few hours all by myself for some mountain sight seeing. I don't like cramped seats (cue the 'cramped seat' jokes).

[cycling_mike]

I will never heli-approach. In fact, much of the time I approach via bicycle. There is a veritable shitload of environmental and social reasons to cut fossil fuel consumption, and if you're paying attention at all you've heard some of them before.

 

What I really love about bike road trips is the freedom and adventure: I can camp wherever I want and avoid pesky Natnl. Park fees, forest passes, permits and the like. Plus nothing else is quite as satisfying as reaching a summit (or top of the pitch) completely self-propelled. Driving is boring; with biking you start the adventure at your doorstep.

[cj001f]

This whole discussion

 

is a hell of alot better than sitting in a dentists chair listening to the best of Nickelback sickie

[David Trippett]

so what?

 

what's the sound of one hand clapping?

 

don't worry, I laugh at what you write too

 

I am glad I can help take away some of your pain

[tvashtarkatena]

I will never heli-approach. In fact, much of the time I approach via bicycle. There is a veritable shitload of environmental and social reasons to cut fossil fuel consumption, and if you're paying attention at all you've heard some of them before.

 

What I really love about bike road trips is the freedom and adventure: I can camp wherever I want and avoid pesky Natnl. Park fees, forest passes, permits and the like. Plus nothing else is quite as satisfying as reaching a summit (or top of the pitch) completely self-propelled. Driving is boring; with biking you start the adventure at your doorstep.

 

Ah, the adventure of 100 dB road noise and truck fumes, mile after glacially slow mile, on your way to the summit of Mt. Tabor.

[tokyobob]

Guys and gals,

The dirtbagger doesn't care one way or the other, he's just an instigator like that "woody the woodpecker"---with the emphasis on peckerhead.

Edited September 4, 2007 by tokyobob

[cj001f]

Guys and gals,

The dirtbagger doesn't care one way or the other, he's just an instigator like that "woody the woodpecker"---with the emphasis on peckerhead.

 

woah, I'd never considered he might be a troll.

 

Thanks!

[AlpineK]

It's always good to see trolls that can keep their posts active and not instantly shipped to Spray. Or even worse banned.