Ken Nichols convicted and fined for bolt chopping

[RuMR]

yeah...but that is a FUNNY pic!

[billcoe]

Quoted: " Nichols explained to the court that his actions were ethical ones: Ken was saving the cliffs from the “sport climbers”. The judge told Nichols he sounded like a like a school yard bully and that an “ethical” stance would not involve destruction of private property and endangerment of the lives of others. It was then that the judge added the stipulation about “no chopping anywhere” to the plea deal."

 

Obviously the judge was no Yvon.

[billcoe]

Hey crispy dick, yer lookin' a little shriveled...

 

better go buy that corvette for that impending mid life crisis...

 

Yup Rudy, but your reply was spot on funny too.

[billcoe]

opps.

 

I was trying....

[pope]

What would be funny is to take the conversation (as circular and non-productive as it is) to the next level...insulting people and posting funny pictures which results in getting you banned!

 

after you get banned, then you can claim that you were censured somehow! Brilliant.

 

i'm tempted just to flush this whole thread down the toilet.

 

Seriously, what has been argued here that hasn't already been said in the various other IB/bolt-or-not conversation threads? Have our main protagonists here actually learned something? Have the various people who have gotten their egos entangled is this conversation learned something? I know I have not heard a single thing argued that actually builds on what has already been said.

 

It would be interesting to hear from some other people who might be reading this thread, and the usual suspects just STFU. Or...you can sit around and stroke your ego. But keep and mind that if thing get out of hand (as they are above right now), you risk getting banned...and it isn't because of your political/environmental/climbing views. Its because you can't have a civil conversation in a regulated forum.

 

Hey Porter, if you wanna ban me for writing "Enjoy this!" followed by a photo of a hotdog, be my guest.

[olyclimber]

Are you feeling guilty? I didn't actually single you out.

 

Stroke on, but remember this isn't spray.

 

[JayB]

It's strange that - unlike Joseph Healy - these two champions of boldness and ethical conduct are so reluctant to have their behavior and commentary on this site associated with their real names.

[kevbone]

Double Dip......J tree.

 

 

 

 

This bolt was most likely placed on lead sometime in the seventies. I personaly would not care if is was power drilled on rapell.

 

So it comes to ethics of HOW the bolt was placed????? Why.....why do you care so much?

[AlpineK]

I'd say that having done a bunch of climbs with bolts on them I don't care how they were placed. On lead or on rappel it doesn't matter; as long as the bolts are in good spots for leading the route and they aren't right next to cracks.

 

I have seen a fair share of bolts next to cracks in Leavenworth. This whole conversation reminds me of one route right up from Carnival Crack that while a fun climb had a bolt pretty darn close to a crack.

 

If I'm not mistaken some of the anti bolt guys on this thread were involved.

[pope]

I'd say that having done a bunch of climbs with bolts on them I don't care how they were placed. On lead or on rappel it doesn't matter; as long as the bolts are in good spots for leading the route and they aren't right next to cracks.

 

I have seen a fair share of bolts next to cracks in Leavenworth. This whole conversation reminds me of one route right up from Carnival Crack that while a fun climb had a bolt pretty darn close to a crack.

 

If I'm not mistaken some of the anti bolt guys on this thread were involved.

 

This is old news. Most who have climbed it feel the route's single bolt is appropriately placed in a spot where reasonable protection is not available. Without it, you'd have to do the crux and face a big, swinging fall back into a shallow dihedral, or maybe hit a ledge. If bomber gear existed at the crux, there would have been no bolt. The crux is gymnastically much harder than the rest of the route, which means a climber could easily reach the crux and then find himself way over his head. The guidebook incorrectly credits a handful of people for this climb when it was mostly the vision and effort of Scotty Hopkins. The bolt hole was drilled on the lead, but our 3/8" Fixe bolt somehow didn't fit the hole. We then borrowed a rotohammer from Jim Phillips and put in a 1/2" bolt at the crux. Scotty, Jason Mikos and I thought it was about 5.9+, but it went in the book as 5.10b.

 

Feck and others have taunted that if I were a "real bad-ass", I wouldn't have placed a bolt. May I comment that:

(1) I'm not nor have I ever claimed to be a "real bad-ass".

(2) I could free solo the route if it would make you happy (but I probably won't because I'm a daddy).

(3) I'm not an anti-bolt Nazi. Bolts have a place in climbing.

[pope]

Double Dip......J tree.

 

 

 

 

This bolt was most likely placed on lead sometime in the seventies. I personaly would not care if is was power drilled on rapell.

 

So it comes to ethics of HOW the bolt was placed????? Why.....why do you care so much?

 

I'll concede that many routes have been established on rappel with excellent results. But if you scrutinize the photograph, you'll notice a difference between this (possibly) lead-placed bolt and what you see at Exit 38 or Smith: the bolt in your photo doesn't exist in a grid of bolts. My problem with rappel placed bolts is not the result but the method. Rap bolting is just WAY TOO EASY. One needs zero skill, zero commitment, zero balls, zero ability, zero experience and zero judgement. The result is that anybody with a Bosch can establish a route, and too often when you look at what is getting bolted, one can only conclude that is exactly what happened. Bolted climbs today are sloppy and crowded together. Short "routes" receive far too many bolts, and this mentality spreads into Wilderness areas and to traditional crags. Climbers get used to having a choice of clipping the bolt by their knee, hip or shoulder, and then they expect this sort of artifical experience everywhere they go.

 

Maybe there's a bold lead on Castle Rock that only a few people have managed over the decades. Maybe it's getting a little dirty. Gee, wouldn't it be neat to put some bolts on it so that it's comparable to that route on the east wall at the Redmond Vertical World? And who wants to lug a rack of large cams up the Grand Wall for that undercling above the Sword? Ain't it neat that we can just clip bolts and zip past? The worst thing about rap bolting is the attitude it fosters.

 

So for me, how the bolts go in matters. Sport climbing and rap bolting represent the ultimate disrespect for the traditions of mountaineering, and also absolute laziness and the rejection of a "leave no trace" ethic.

 

Now go back and study your photograph. Imagine that same cliff in Leavenworth. There would be at least five other bolts visible in the neighborhood of the one you've clipped. That's because here in Washington, "It's all good". Makes me wanna puke.

[olyclimber]

(3) I'm not an anti-bolt Nazzi. Bolts have a place in climbing.

 

OMFG. Thanks "pope".

[Dechristo]

What's a "nazzi"?

[Raindawg]

"pope" say:

 

Makes me wanna puke.

 

Makes me wanna holler!!!

 

 

 

[kevbone]

But if you scrutinize the photograph, you'll notice a difference between this (possibly) lead-placed bolt

 

This is a very popular route in J tree......there is no way this route was put up on rapel. This was put up on lead.

 

 

[TrogdortheBurninator]

Nice post Pope. Aside from some overly broad generalizations I'd agree with a lot of what you are saying. The key is that rap bolting should be thoughtful. What I don't understand is your constant bashing of the rappel bolting in darrington. In my experience rappel bolted routes in darrington are broadly incredibly well thought out and enjoyable, while still preserving a healthy dose of excitement. Yes they are tamer than some of the lead bolted routes, but the flavor of the area has been preserved in a slightly safer modern manner. Many of the old runout routes still exist in their original state, others have had their original hardware updated (by hand where legally required), and a few others have been retrobolted. You would be far fetched to call any of the crags grid bolted, and most of the routes get your heart pumping if the climbing is anywhere near your limit.

 

By contrast E38 has some 2 bolt shit piles that really are a slap in the face of climbing. The quality sucks and it sure gives the impression of being bolted just because the FAist could.

 

Lumping all rap bolting into a single group is simply not fair. It is equally unfair to blame the WCC for advocating sport bolting. What the WCC aims to protect AFAIK is climbing access. This includes traditional crags and sport crags.

 

Extra bonus question (probably asked before):

 

If the FAist of Infinite Bliss would redrill every single bolt by hand, would you still call for its removal?

[pope]

But if you scrutinize the photograph, you'll notice a difference between this (possibly) lead-placed bolt

 

This is a very popular route in J tree......there is no way this route was put up on rapel. This was put up on lead.

 

 

Bravo. I believe you're right. Dick Cilley pointed out to me why Joshua Tree is so much cooler than the City of Rocks: climbers have made an effort to keep it natural. When you top out on Coarse and Buggy you'll find no anchors. It's kind of a hassle as I remember but in the end the experience is very rewarding. When I first visited Joshua Tree we tried to top-rope Baby Apes. I remember having to rig an anchor by using a second rope that stretched far over the dome. Now that wall is cheapened by a mess of bolts on climbs that were probably top-roped for many years, all so that some wanker could pretend he was "leading". What a shame.

[kevbone]

Ah.....Joshua Tree......my all time favorite place to just be!

 

 

[fenderfour]

Godwin's Law:

 

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

[AlpineK]

Eric like I said I enjoyed the climb you put up. Despite that the bolt we're talking about is in the vicinity of a crack, and I could definitely see someone who takes a strong anti crack bolt viewpoint being totally against that bolt on your route.

 

In the big picture I could easily name a bunch of other bolts in the Icicle that are much worse offenders in the realm of the crack bolt. It still puts you in a similar position to other, "bad apples."

[hawkeye69]

pretty funny. so pope has placed bolts near cracks but totally bitches about others?

 

Observation: its pretty easy to justify how your own bolts are great and others suck. this is not a unique situation to the cascades, it happens everywhere.

 

"i know i crapped my pants but that kid next to me smells worse than i do" wahhhh

[RuMR]

Double Dip......J tree.

 

 

 

 

This bolt was most likely placed on lead sometime in the seventies. I personaly would not care if is was power drilled on rapell.

 

So it comes to ethics of HOW the bolt was placed????? Why.....why do you care so much?

 

I'll concede that many routes have been established on rappel with excellent results. But if you scrutinize the photograph, you'll notice a difference between this (possibly) lead-placed bolt and what you see at Exit 38 or Smith: the bolt in your photo doesn't exist in a grid of bolts. My problem with rappel placed bolts is not the result but the method. Rap bolting is just WAY TOO EASY. One needs zero skill, zero commitment, zero balls, zero ability, zero experience and zero judgement. The result is that anybody with a Bosch can establish a route, and too often when you look at what is getting bolted, one can only conclude that is exactly what happened. Bolted climbs today are sloppy and crowded together. Short "routes" receive far too many bolts, and this mentality spreads into Wilderness areas and to traditional crags. Climbers get used to having a choice of clipping the bolt by their knee, hip or shoulder, and then they expect this sort of artifical experience everywhere they go.

 

Maybe there's a bold lead on Castle Rock that only a few people have managed over the decades. Maybe it's getting a little dirty. Gee, wouldn't it be neat to put some bolts on it so that it's comparable to that route on the east wall at the Redmond Vertical World? And who wants to lug a rack of large cams up the Grand Wall for that undercling above the Sword? Ain't it neat that we can just clip bolts and zip past? The worst thing about rap bolting is the attitude it fosters.

 

So for me, how the bolts go in matters. Sport climbing and rap bolting represent the ultimate disrespect for the traditions of mountaineering, and also absolute laziness and the rejection of a "leave no trace" ethic.

 

Now go back and study your photograph. Imagine that same cliff in Leavenworth. There would be at least five other bolts visible in the neighborhood of the one you've clipped. That's because here in Washington, "It's all good". Makes me wanna puke.

if i remember correctly, perry's lieback was done as an A0 ladder, not free climbed first...bolts have nothing to do with "zipping" past it...they were aided...nowadays, no biggie...

 

I may be wrong...where's that fuckin' squid lover, dru, when you need a piece of trivia...

 

anyway, proceed on...

[RuMR]

I'd say that having done a bunch of climbs with bolts on them I don't care how they were placed. On lead or on rappel it doesn't matter; as long as the bolts are in good spots for leading the route and they aren't right next to cracks.

 

I have seen a fair share of bolts next to cracks in Leavenworth. This whole conversation reminds me of one route right up from Carnival Crack that while a fun climb had a bolt pretty darn close to a crack.

 

If I'm not mistaken some of the anti bolt guys on this thread were involved.

 

This is old news. Most who have climbed it feel the route's single bolt is appropriately placed in a spot where reasonable protection is not available. Without it, you'd have to do the crux and face a big, swinging fall back into a shallow dihedral, or maybe hit a ledge. If bomber gear existed at the crux, there would have been no bolt. The crux is gymnastically much harder than the rest of the route, which means a climber could easily reach the crux and then find himself way over his head. The guidebook incorrectly credits a handful of people for this climb when it was mostly the vision and effort of Scotty Hopkins. The bolt hole was drilled on the lead, but our 3/8" Fixe bolt somehow didn't fit the hole. We then borrowed a rotohammer from Jim Phillips and put in a 1/2" bolt at the crux. Scotty, Jason Mikos and I thought it was about 5.9+, but it went in the book as 5.10b.

 

Feck and others have taunted that if I were a "real bad-ass", I wouldn't have placed a bolt. May I comment that:

(1) I'm not nor have I ever claimed to be a "real bad-ass".

(2) I could free solo the route if it would make you happy (but I probably won't because I'm a daddy).

(3) I'm not an anti-bolt Nazi. Bolts have a place in climbing.

...so let me get this straight...you placed that bolt to protect someone who might arrive at that crux unprepared? Isn't this akin to "protecting" the masses, only slightly ever so slightly less?

 

It sure would be nice if you were consistent (besides the consistently annoying via ferrata cum fratboy-tool photo that crops up incessently) in your logic...cuz right now, i'm having a hard time seeing how you aren't sinking in your quicksand logic...

[billcoe]

....Feck and others have taunted that if I were a "real bad-ass", I wouldn't have placed a bolt. May I comment that:

(1) I'm not nor have I ever claimed to be a "real bad-ass".

(2) I could free solo the route if it would make you happy (but I probably won't because I'm a daddy).

(3) I'm not an anti-bolt Nazi. Bolts have a place in climbing.

 

I may not have fully understood your position, I suspect we may have more similarities than differences in our viewpoints.

 

 

___________________________________________________________________

 

 

I'll concede that many routes have been established on rappel with excellent results. But if you scrutinize the photograph, you'll notice a difference between this (possibly) lead-placed bolt and what you see at Exit 38 or Smith: the bolt in your photo doesn't exist in a grid of bolts. My problem with rappel placed bolts is not the result but the method. Rap bolting is just WAY TOO EASY. One needs zero skill, zero commitment, zero balls, zero ability, zero experience and zero judgement. The result is that anybody with a Bosch can establish a route, and too often when you look at what is getting bolted, one can only conclude that is exactly what happened. Bolted climbs today are sloppy and crowded together. Short "routes" receive far too many bolts, and this mentality spreads into Wilderness areas and to traditional crags. Climbers get used to having a choice of clipping the bolt by their knee, hip or shoulder, and then they expect this sort of artifical experience everywhere they go.

 

Maybe there's a bold lead on Castle Rock that only a few people have managed over the decades. Maybe it's getting a little dirty. Gee, wouldn't it be neat to put some bolts on it so that it's comparable to that route on the east wall at the Redmond Vertical World? And who wants to lug a rack of large cams up the Grand Wall for that undercling above the Sword? Ain't it neat that we can just clip bolts and zip past? The worst thing about rap bolting is the attitude it fosters.

 

So for me, how the bolts go in matters. Sport climbing and rap bolting represent the ultimate disrespect for the traditions of mountaineering, and also absolute laziness and the rejection of a "leave no trace" ethic.

 

Now go back and study your photograph. Imagine that same cliff in Leavenworth. There would be at least five other bolts visible in the neighborhood of the one you've clipped. That's because here in Washington, "It's all good". Makes me wanna puke.

 

Concur.

 

(Except for the Puke part)I think if any aspiring rap bolter HAD to use a hand drill and not a Bosch, things would be substantially different. (Of course, we'd still have 1/4" bolts I suspect).

 

However, when I climb bolted routes, I still strangely find myself enjoying the experience.

[kevbone]

I'd say that having done a bunch of climbs with bolts on them I don't care how they were placed. On lead or on rappel it doesn't matter; as long as the bolts are in good spots for leading the route and they aren't right next to cracks.

 

I have seen a fair share of bolts next to cracks in Leavenworth. This whole conversation reminds me of one route right up from Carnival Crack that while a fun climb had a bolt pretty darn close to a crack.

 

If I'm not mistaken some of the anti bolt guys on this thread were involved.

 

This is old news. Most who have climbed it feel the route's single bolt is appropriately placed in a spot where reasonable protection is not available. Without it, you'd have to do the crux and face a big, swinging fall back into a shallow dihedral, or maybe hit a ledge. If bomber gear existed at the crux, there would have been no bolt. The crux is gymnastically much harder than the rest of the route, which means a climber could easily reach the crux and then find himself way over his head. The guidebook incorrectly credits a handful of people for this climb when it was mostly the vision and effort of Scotty Hopkins. The bolt hole was drilled on the lead, but our 3/8" Fixe bolt somehow didn't fit the hole. We then borrowed a rotohammer from Jim Phillips and put in a 1/2" bolt at the crux. Scotty, Jason Mikos and I thought it was about 5.9+, but it went in the book as 5.10b.

 

Feck and others have taunted that if I were a "real bad-ass", I wouldn't have placed a bolt. May I comment that:

(1) I'm not nor have I ever claimed to be a "real bad-ass".

(2) I could free solo the route if it would make you happy (but I probably won't because I'm a daddy).

(3) I'm not an anti-bolt Nazi. Bolts have a place in climbing.

...so let me get this straight...you placed that bolt to protect someone who might arrive at that crux unprepared? Isn't this akin to "protecting" the masses, only slightly ever so slightly less?

 

It sure would be nice if you were consistent (besides the consistently annoying via ferrata cum fratboy-tool photo that crops up incessently) in your logic...cuz right now, i'm having a hard time seeing how you aren't sinking in your quicksand logic...

 

 

Talk about the whipping boy! Nice one Ru!