The Black Diamond manipulative campaign

[AlpineK]

I seem to remember the whole kevlar thing. Chouinard and GPIW thought that kevlar was the best thing since sliced bread. They based their claim on the fiber's strength. Blue Water (the comp) tested kevlar by rappelling a bunch on a kevlar line. They found that while the fiber is strong it is also brittle and thus not good as a rope.

Chouinard put up a little fight at first, I remember some letters to the editor in Climbing, but after more evidence against kevlar came in they dropped the product.

So Chouinard made a mistake, but after he figured it out, he dropped the product. Sounds responsible to me

[freeclimb9]

quote:

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Originally posted by erik:

okay freeclimb, could you please embelish on your statement of a kevlar fixed line failing on an expediation....i would like know as personal knowledge to myself, cus one the best ways to learn is from others mistakes....

and also i have tracked your side steps to every response to your statements......do you work for the church down there or the good state of utah????

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to erik, Rodchester, JoeTool, pindude, and all the skeptics of my memory:I don't remember the specifics of the accident. It was awhile ago, you know. And what would I get for looking through magazines I've got that have survived 18 years and a dozen moves to find a reference? Your undying respect for my word?

And last year I made my money big game sport-fishing.

[pindude]

quote:

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Originally posted by Peter Puget:

Funny thing this thread started with positive comments directed at the old GPIW and related companies. Now it seems as tho the old Chouinard owned company is being slammed and yet the BD defenders think the new company is being slammed. Freeclimb seems to be complaining about the old company.

I have virtually no experience with the new BD because of an experience I had with the old company. The old Chouinard owned company, despite the old man's assertions of quality, made some real shit and after knowing it was shit did continue to sell the stuff even after production was discontinued. Eg: the old blue handled piton/ice hammer. I took back a hammer sans head and was told by an employee that they were aware of the problem and going back to wood after their inventory ran out. After hearing that I figured anyone who thinks that YC deserves respect was a total goofball. Imagine selling as an ice tool/piton hammer something you knew had defect that caused it to break. Call me a liar Pindude but in fact it is the truth. It also has nothing to do with the modern Black Diamond. Just adding my rant to the world.

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While the company may have changed when it went from Chouinard to Black Diamond (and originally was GPIW), and continues to evolve today, it is still the SAME company. At the time of the Chouinard-BD name change, Yvon sold the majority interest to the employees, many of whom are still involved.

The only one I called a liar was icebaby, for telling us he lost fingers due to the glove (before he was called on it by Erik, and recanted). Peter, when will you get it? You did the same thing as freeclimb. As I said before, if you are going to spout as "truth" and make claims such as despite "the old man's assertions of quality, (he) made some real shit and after knowing it was shit did continue to sell the stuff even after production was discontinued," then you better back up your claim with more than a suspect and fallacious example. You go on to say that this is true because "I took back a hammer sans head and was told by an employee that they were aware of the problem and going back to wood after their inventory ran out." What employee? Yvon himself or someone else in the Ventura? Or some boarding school-aged newby climber at a shop on your side of the pond who passed himself off to you as a credible representative of Yvon? You, like icebaby, seem to jump to quick conclusions.

People with a mind and who think and read posts such as yours will generally treat inflammatory info as suspect unless you can back it up. If you're going to make these types of statements, do your work and give us real evidence. Even a vague reference to Summit, Climbing, R&I, without telling which specific issue, doesn't cut it. No, I'm not going as far as calling you a liar, but without proper proof and reasoning you do also get the following grade: F.

pindude

"Transcend the Bullshit"

[JoeTool]

freeclimb,I never questioned your memory. Are you not reading your posts or are you just skimming? in fact I agree with you on the kevlar thing. i started climbing in 85 right when the whole kevlar thing was all the rage.The first lesson I ever took was at A-16, and they specifically told us to ONLY use kevlar for nut slings, and not for prussiks or as rope.do you dance? 'cause you sure are good at sidesteppin!

[ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: JoeTool ]

[ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: JoeTool ]

[AlpineK]

I don't remember anyone getting killed by kevlar.

[JoeTool]

Ak, I don't either, but I do remember there was some saftey issue.I'll agree with ice on that much.BTW, I still have some of my origional hexs slung w/kevlar.

[erik]

quote:

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Originally posted by pindude:

Or some boarding school-aged newby climber at a shop on your side of the pond who passed himself off to you as a credible representative of Yvon? "Transcend the Bullshit"

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federal way is in england????

luke follow me to the dark side...enter the mega store show your dark side by climbing seattles giant schlonger.........

i dont think pp lives in merry ole' england..

[ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: erik ]

[Peter_Puget]

No but that is where PP is buried. May he rest in peace.

Pinhead - Relax. As far as it being the "same" company I am not familiar with the legalities of the "sale." I wouldn't mind if you filled me in tho.

Quote from pinhead <<a suspect and fallacious example.>>

It is simply true. Unlike Freeclimb I am reporting something from my direct experience. The representative was a "factory trained" representative form CA. You may think it suspect but your suspicions do not change the facts. I never quoted a mag article. Take it as you will. I would ask, how assuming the example is true, it is fallacious? I guess I should say how is my assertion fallacious or not supported by my example.

Sadly they gave me a new blue handled hammer soon its head began to separate too.

[specialed]

quote:

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Originally posted by pindude:

Never seen a J. Crew catalog (who buys that stuff, anyway), but sellout? No way. BD has always made stickers, given out liberally by their folks. Guess now they are offering them as a regular item for order. pin

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This doesn't seem like a fat sellout to you?

[Bronco]

I have some drytool gloves I paid $40.00 for and they are spiffy. I think freeclimb is just having some fun with you guys.

[pindude]

quote:

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Originally posted by freeclimb9:

I don't feel obligated to prove anything to you, pindude. You're skepticism may be warranted, but your manner is crude. For my sake? Don't veil a threat, if that's what that is. FYI, Chouinard never made rope, or cord. They did distribute for Beal. That's probably what's on your hexes. Chouinard Equipment did sell off the kevlar cord back in the day. I don't know what brand cord failed as a fixed line. I never put a brand association with it. But, I challenge you to find anyone who would now reccomend kevlar for a fixed line. Why is that? Hmmmm. Beal's website (

http://www.beal-planet.com

) states for Aramide (i.e. kevlar) lines that it "must never be used as fixed line." Why is this statement put on their website? Coincidence? Just one more question for you, pindude, why do you think that BD only sells wired (emphasis on WIRED, not threadable) hexes these days? Love that kevlar! Bring on the libel lawsuits, one and all!

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"Crude?" How? Because I used words and logic without any neat, nasty words?

"Veiling a threat?" Come on. You're projecting now. For the sake of discourse and a good argument, I meant sincerely that I would like you to come up with some solid evidence to back up your statements. I do enjoy a good debate.

Exactly what and why are you "challenging?" You completely misunderstand if you think I am going to bat for Kevlar solely because it is still on some of my older hexes which I have kept as museum pieces. Last time I used them? About 10 years ago. I'm fully aware the diamond-C was historically a distributor for Beal rope and cordage. Kevlar was never sold to me or any of my buddies as anything other than cordage to use as slings for our pro. Nobody I ever climbed with has wanted to use Kevlar, or any other 5.5mm static cord for that matter, as fixed line. I recall that once Kevlar was discontinued for improved Gemini cord, climbers bought up the remaining Kevlar as quickly as possible. For hex cordage and V-threads the stuff worked great due to it's stiffer properties: When reaching with a hex I could make higher placements by holding the cord under the hex, and when using it for V-threads didn't usually need to use my ice cleaning tool to snake the cord out thru the second hole. Yes, Kevlar has been improved upon--good for us. Regardless, your argument has turned into a Red Herring.

You would be well off to take not only a class in Research, but also Debate.

-Pindude

"Transcend the bullshit."

[JoeTool]

BD might have something w/those stickers;It sure would help identify the yuppie mountaineers!

[JoeTool]

freeclimb9=sidestep V (N)1. To step aside: sidestepped to make way for the runner.2. To dodge an issue or a responsibility.

v. tr.1. To step out of the way of.2. To evade; skirt: sidestep a difficult questionn : a step to one side (as in boxing or dancing) v : avoid or try to avoid, as of duties, questions and issues; "He dodged the issue" [syn: hedge, fudge, evade, put off, circumvent, parry, elude, skirt, dodge, duck]

[hikerwa]

I have a set of chrome BD deely-bobbers. they attach to my helmet right in front of the dual beer can holders (Pabst or Busch). That way I don't look like the gumby dork I truly am.

[pindude]

quote:

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Originally posted by Peter Puget:

No but that is where PP is buried. May he rest in peace.

Pinhead - Relax. As far as it being the "same" company I am not familiar with the legalities of the "sale." I wouldn't mind if you filled me in tho.

Quote from pinhead <<a suspect and fallacious example.>>

It is simply true. Unlike Freeclimb I am reporting something from my direct experience. The representative was a "factory trained" representative form CA. You may think it suspect but your suspicions do not change the facts. I never quoted a mag article. Take it as you will. I would ask, how assuming the example is true, it is fallacious? I guess I should say how is my assertion fallacious or not supported by my example.

Sadly they gave me a new blue handled hammer soon its head began to separate too.

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I myself was once a young climbing goods salesman in the '80s, and still am close to the outdoor retailing world. Then, as today, salespeople--er, customer service people--are "cliniced" by the manufacturer's rep in a large group setting maybe for a couple hours every 6 months or so. They generally are not "factory trained," although if they are, they are lucky dogs. We were never offered Chouinard or BD factory-training, nor am I aware that it was offered to any of the individual employees working in other specialty shops. As far as factory is concerned, maybe a tour if we were in Ventura or SLC after the move, yes, but factory training, no. Suffice to say, the manufacturer spends precious little time teaching salespeople the culture of their company, nor can they afford to. Most of the customer service training of that man/woman or kid on the floor comes from the individual store's management, and the salesperson's own motivation. Regardless, there are always going to be good salespeople and bad salespeople. I think you got a bad one. Your example was not supportive of your argument because you equated the shop's poor salesperson with Yvon, which I think even he would take issue with. You should be able to distinguish between Yvon and his company, and a right- or wrong-headed salesperson on the floor of a retail shop. If I had gotten a second hammer with a separating head, I would have taken that back too and gotten another manufacturer's tool or my money back, which by all rights the store should have done for you. If not, then sometimes it is better to deal directly with the manufacturer to resolve CS issues.

Thanks for letting me know you're here, and not really in Bath, England. You got one on me there. I guess Bath, England doesn't equal Federal Way just as that bad salesperson doesn't equal Yvon and his company.

For details on the sale, there was a great article by Krakauer appearing in Outside, about when it happened in 1989. I'm sure you'll take great pleasure in noting I can't give you a link to the specific issue and article--Outside online has not archived their mag for issues before 1992. Bottom line, there were 3 lawsuits pending vs. Chouinard Equipment. Each of the 3 had to do with user-error, NOT company error. Yvon took his lawyer's advice to settle each of the 3 pending suits, and separate/protect his real cash cow--Patagonia--by selling majority ownership of Chouinard Equipment. He sold to his employees. Don't know if he still owns a portion, but his employees--with I think Peter Metcalf as head that whole time--have been managing it since, of course having renamed the company Black Diamond. I thought Yvon did a great job of running Chouinard Equipment, and think Metcalf and the employees are doing even better with BD.

May PP rest in peace.

-pindude

[pindude]

quote:

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Originally posted by specialed:

This doesn't seem like a fat sellout to you?

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"Selling" and "sell-out." Two different things, unless you have a different definition of "sell-out." I'd gladly buy up those stickers if I still didn't have so many unused ones dating back to the early 90's.

-pindude

[cj001f]

Never seen a J. Crew catalog (who buys that stuff, anyway), but sellout? No way. BD has always made stickers, given out liberally by their folks. Guess now they are offering them as a regular item for order.

These are not their regular BD stickers, they are Flames, Flowers, and other such for Helmets only. Why not make a little profit on the side? As for J. Crew - eastern Frat Boys & Sorostitutes

Following BD and Patagonia catalogs since the 70's, they have always been at the fore of graphic and publishing design.

They've always had some of the best catalogs around IMHO - what's interesting is when you compare prices from those catalogs. The Megamid listed for $150 in the 1981 Chouinard catalog. If they were in it to make a killing, they might have tried to increase the price on this one a bit.

Carl

[specialed]

quote:

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Originally posted by pindude:

I'd gladly buy up those stickers if I still didn't have so many unused ones dating back to the early 90's.

-pindude

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Sad bro, sad. Good thing or I'd have to laugh at your ass when I saw you at the crag.

As for their lame catalog. The best thing about those is the photos of real climbers out doing cool shit, like the PAtagucci catalog. Look at BD's Winter 01/02, almost every photos from some dumb photo shoot of pro climber / models sporting all the trendy gear and clothing and pre fab BD stickers on their immaculate brain buckets. That's not cool, there's no soul there. That's not down with real climbing. Lame I tell you, LAME!

[ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: specialed ]

[erik]

quote:

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Originally posted by specialed:

Sad bro, sad. Good thing or I'd have to laugh at your ass when I saw you at the crag.

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ed dont laugh too hard you might spill your beer, hey arent you still belaying me......

[Rodchester]

Just a point of interest:

I was having beers in Chicago with a very well known female climber (freed the nose type - can't name names because I might be accused of name dropping) and she told me a story about Yvon and tha nameing of BD. It has been some years since this conversation, but my recollection of it was something like:

The only route she had ever done in Wyoming (at the time anyway) was one with Yvon. She was visiting him in Jackson and he said come with me to do this climb that I have been eyeing for a while. At a distance he pointed the route out to her and said something about it looking like a Black Diamond. They did the climb and returned to Jackson.

Soemtime later he told her that climb was on his mind during the sale, it was suggested and it stuck.

Now, I may have been lied to, or a I may have recalled it incorrectly. I am ONLY repeating what I was told over beers and pizza from someone that climbed with the guy.

Just thought it to be interesting...

And there is a difference between selling and selling out. Who did they sell out to? Themselves?

[specialed]

If you don't know, then I'm definetly not going to tell you.

[Rodchester]

Oh I get it they sold out to the man that has been keeping us down (as climbers that is really oppresive).

Thanks for not telling me.

[pindude]

quote:

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Originally posted by specialed:

Sad bro, sad. Good thing or I'd have to laugh at your ass when I saw you at the crag.

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I hope you'd be laffin, coz they'd be stuck right on my fat ass next to an embroidered patch of the Wawona Tunnel and the Valley view! -pindude

[ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ]

[Paul_Warner]

I've had some mixed (no pun intended)experiences with BD CS. Don't get me wrong. I love their gear (for the most part), but if yer gonna drop hard-earned ducats on gear yer life might depend on, ya wanna believe it's gonna hold up and be dependable.

Good experiences: BD replaced my old-style ice gloves no questions asked after the seams on the thumb started to blow out. They even replaced them with the newer models, even though I knew they had a stock of old ones left, because I had (politely) mentioned to the CS rep that I was frustrated that the inside of the glove wasn't sewn to the outside, so the non-removable liner would invert when you pulled your hand out, and was a total hassle to put right. They fixed that on the next generation, and that's what they sent to me. (Previous comments about being polite to CS, and being wary of first-generation designs are spot on!) I've had other good experiences with them, as well.

Bad experience: The spring that keeps the cam extended on my #1 camelot broke at Red Rocks last Fall, and I sent it to BD. They sent it back, explaining that it couldn't be fixed, and looked like "it should be retired, because it looked like it was at the end of it's useful life". While I realize that once the unit is produced, it can't be dismantled, and therefore wasn't fixable, I don't believe it wasn't thrashed beyond it's lifespan, IMHO. The sling is still in very good condition, and I've only owned it for a few years. Anyway, I figured they should replace it, or sell me one at a discount, but they wouldn't. Not that big of a thing, but it does seem that they have become a little more um, mercenary, in the past 2-3 years.

I've generally had good experiences with manufacturers of outdoor gear. But the bottom line is they are running a business, and can smell bullshit a mile away.

My Absolutely Worst Experience: Mountain Gear, in Spokane. But that's another story....

PW

[pindude]

Originally posted by freeclimb9:"Iceicebaby, watch out for BD first runs...<snip>...Kevlar accessory cord. Once touted as a miracle fixing line. When it was determined that the core fibers would break into dust with repeated cycling (a couple people had to die first), Chouinard put the stuff up at sale prices rather than make a product recall. I'll never forget that move."

pindude, in reply to above: What happened to my request to transcend the bullshit? If you are going to be blaming a company for death, and spray it to the world, you'd better be pretty darn sure and post some believable SOURCES to back your shit up.

freeclimb9: "...<snip>...I have friends who work at BD...<snip>"

Not any more!

pindude

[ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ]

[ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ]

[ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ]