Paul_Warner

I've had some mixed (no pun intended)experiences with BD CS. Don't get me wrong. I love their gear (for the most part), but if yer gonna drop hard-earned ducats on gear yer life might depend on, ya wanna believe it's gonna hold up and be dependable. Good experiences: BD replaced my old-style ice gloves no questions asked after the seams on the thumb started to blow out. They even replaced them with the newer models, even though I knew they had a stock of old ones left, because I had (politely) mentioned to the CS rep that I was frustrated that the inside of the glove wasn't sewn to the outside, so the non-removable liner would invert when you pulled your hand out, and was a total hassle to put right. They fixed that on the next generation, and that's what they sent to me. (Previous comments about being polite to CS, and being wary of first-generation designs are spot on!) I've had other good experiences with them, as well. Bad experience: The spring that keeps the cam extended on my #1 camelot broke at Red Rocks last Fall, and I sent it to BD. They sent it back, explaining that it couldn't be fixed, and looked like "it should be retired, because it looked like it was at the end of it's useful life". While I realize that once the unit is produced, it can't be dismantled, and therefore wasn't fixable, I don't believe it wasn't thrashed beyond it's lifespan, IMHO. The sling is still in very good condition, and I've only owned it for a few years. Anyway, I figured they should replace it, or sell me one at a discount, but they wouldn't. Not that big of a thing, but it does seem that they have become a little more um, mercenary, in the past 2-3 years. I've generally had good experiences with manufacturers of outdoor gear. But the bottom line is they are running a business, and can smell bullshit a mile away. My Absolutely Worst Experience: Mountain Gear, in Spokane. But that's another story.... PW

I'll try to answer the question (Well, what are some routes that you folks have done which you'd like to repeat or which you tend to repeat regularly?) as directly as I can before I start spinning off in wierd tangents: Routes I'd like to repeat assuming I've only done them once)( and depending on the committment factor, ie. my available time, what kind of shape I'm in, who my partner is, all the stuff that shapes this kind of subjective rumination (In no particular order) Mountaineers Route, Elephant Perch, Idaho Sawtooths Crimson Chrysalis, Red Rocks, Nevada Beckey-Chouinard, South Howser Tower, Bugs East Buttress, Middle Cathedral, Yosemite South Face, Prusik Peak Liberty Ridge, Mt. Rainier The Snaz, Death Canyon, Tetons North Ridge, Grand Teton Rebel Yell, East Face Chianti West Ridge, Forbidden Peak Complete North Ridge, Mt Stuart Northwest Arete, Mount Sir Donald But I realize the attraction and fond memories I have of these routes is not born of the routes themselves, but of the experiences I had while feeling their stone and snow, the comraderie of good partners, the smiling benificence of good weather, and the good tangential "experience" that is so difficult to describe. I'm certain that I've done a few routes that I would have considered quite fine and worthy of repeat, except for a lack of good "tangential" experience, or more accurately, a heaping helping of BAD "tangential" experience....... Like the time my partner came down with Colorado Tick Fever after doing the South face of Blodgett, and almost died. Or almost getting zapped with lightning on Mt. Louis, or overestimating my girlfriend's capacity for suffering on an extended climbing/backpacking trip in the Sawtooths. But there's a thread with almost infinite capacity for response, heh? Anyway, I geuss the second part of the original question deals with routes we tend to gravitate towards, repeating again, and again, but for what reason? I have found myself repeating climbs for a number of reasons, usually because I like them, and they're convenient (ie low comittment factor), or because I am trying to do them in better style: Routes I have repeated (for whatever reason): Cooper-Hiser on Chimney Rock (E. Face), Selkirks, North Idaho: First Ascent by the namesakes in 1961. First Free Ascent in 1972 by Roskelley and Kopczynski. At 5.9-, it's pretty moderate, but the 200+ feet of air below yer ass on the barn door laybacks will tend to pucker you up. There's a bunch of 5.6 - 5.12 routes 3-4 pitches long to the top of this sharkfin tower, but no walk-ups! And although I've done a number of them, even multiple times (including hauling overnight sleeping/steak barbecue/scotch and beer gear to the top via the 5.6 rap chimney, just to camp on top and watch the sun set), there's no other route (multi-pitch)I've ever done as many times as Cooper-Hiser. (20+ times) The North Idaho Selkirks are at the top of my list for sacred places. Killer Spring skiing, too! (Sobo was correct in praising Harrison Peak, just a hop/skip/jump from Chimney. Except that most of of the routes weren't put up by Roskelley/Kop, but by Randy Greene. Keystone route and Sunset Dihedral are also climbs I've repeated several times, and probably will again. Added perks: low crowds, the chance to see some of the last Woodland caribou alive in the lower 48, and great fishing, if yer into fresh trout for dinner) Outer Space (about 14-15 x) Why? Because it's Fred's vision and realization of a Utopian Alpine Rock Climb!....... Orbit/Mary Jane Dihedral (couple times) Liberty Crack (I've done this route 4 times, with different partners and increasing speed/style, and now I'd like to rope solo it! And I gotta disagree with previous posts. There are some great pitches up higher.) N. Face Athabaska (3 times, including Hourglass variation) Direct East Buttress, South Early Winter Spire (Couple times, but still haven't totally freed it!) The Mutt and Jeff, Humbug Spires, Montana (This is a truly magical place. The route is named after an unlikely climbing team who pioneered the route in the late 60s, and later perished attempting the N face of Mt. Cleveland, Glacier Nat'l Park, in the winter of '69. Lots of good climbs in a unique alpine environment. Check out Randy Greene's Climbing Guide to Montana.) And so while I really like the introspective and thoughtful quality of this thread, I really believe it begs a deeper question: What makes a "classic" climb classic?? I would offer the viewpoint that it's not so much the climb itself, but the quality of experience you associate with it. In that way, any climb can be a "classic" in your own mind, and worthy of visiting again and again. It's a strange and wonderful game we play. Have fun and be careful out there. pw

Like Red, I had heard of ice up near Bluewood. I went telemarking up there yesterday, and on the way back, saw a couple of people playing on some ice, so stopped to check it out. The ice actually looked pretty good, well bonded and plastic. I was wishing I had my tools! If it doesn't warm up too much, it should remain, as it is in a cool shady location, and the approach is 1 minute. Might be kinda tough wading the creek to access some of the bigger pillars to the right, and I don't think there are bolts above the left-hand climbs, which top out into steep chossy slopes. paul warner

In no particular order (cuz it depends on what ya can live with, and NO place is perfect.....): Bend, OregonSpokane/Coeur d'AleneSandpoint, IdahoCanmore, AlbertaDriggs, IdahoMissoula, Montana (Less yuppified than Bozeman)Whitefish, MontanaMcCall, IdahoMazamaSalt Lake City

BTW, the thread subject title is classic Bond, James Bond.

Question for y'all: I've owned a Spectre "ice piton" for about four years, and only used it once, banged into a frozen soil/root ball on a thin mixed piece of choss in Montana, and clipped a "fixed" spectre on Red Man Soars a few years past. Does anyone else own and regularly carry an ice hook?Have you ever used it? The testing data I've seen doesn't inspire much confidence in their holding power for a fall. I've seen it written that they make good "panic" pieces, but if you're that pumped, how easy is it to place? (I use both an ice hammer [left hand] and ice axe [right hand], so it seems like it would be hard to pound it in with the side of the adze. I qeuss that's a topic for another thread- "Two hammers or one of each?/Which hand?") I'd really like to know other people's opinion/experience with these pieces. Thanks PW

The "physicality factor" is directly tied to the route you wanna do. For instance, the Kautz and the Emmons don't require a carryover of gear, so you can do the routes with light loads. Liberty Ridge, on the other hand, requires a carryover of gear, unless you want to downclimb the route. I've done all three of these routes, and my vote is for the Kautz, for yer first taste. If you want solitude, do the Emmons before the road to White River opens up. It's an extra 7-8 miles hump on asphalt, but you'll only see rangers on the route, and might get a pre-dug snow cave at Camp Shurman as a bonus! (like we did) After you get a taste of how yer body deals with the altitude, go back and do Lib Ridge. It's sweeet, in the right conditions, and fun, even if you have to wander around for five hours in a whiteout on top to find the way down. (like we did) Much of altitude conditioning is genetic. While it's wise to be in good aerobic shape, and stay hydrated, some people just can't hack altitude above 12 K feet. Do an easier route to find out how you fare, then plan for another harder route if you style. have fun, whatever you do!

all you people scare me. Mommy???

Climbing roped together, instead of setting up traditional belays, is a great way to save time, but the bottom line is this: If a fall of any climber is likely, and would pull the rest of the party off their feet, use a running belay!! It doesn't take that much more time, and is infinitely safer. If you insist on climbing together without being "tied into the mountain", untie and solo climb. That way, only the person falling is gonna get whacked! (unless they hit someone else) A perusal of "Accidents in N. American Mountaineering" will provide MANY accounts of just such a situation. Don't become a statistic.

As far as NPS fees go, I pay it and don't bitch. But the general "fee demo program" has gotten outta control. It seems like I get nickle-and-dimed to death. The BLM, Fish and Wildlife, and Forest Service are all jumping on the money train generated from the surge in yuppie outdoor recreation. I'm a poor grad student, and don't have the $100 disposable income to go hiking in the Blue Mountains, park at Vantage, Sawtooths, every other national/state area. What gives?? Case in point: last weekend, the F & W showed up at Vantage, and started handing out $75 tickets to unregistered vehicles. They made a killing. If I KNOW the money is directly going back into trail maintainence, etc., I'm cool with it, but isn't a large proportion of the funds generated going into enforcement? It just seems crazy........

Does anyone have ANY idea on how to achieve a "consensus" on this issue?? I agree that the adversarial nature of some of the posts may actually be doing more harm than good, by discouraging the people putting up this route to come forward with their side of the story. (there's three sides to every story. Yours and mine, and the cold hard truth) But there really isn't any TRUTH to this story, only people's opinions or what is right/wrong. On the other hand, I think the overwhelming vibe I get is that people don't want an "alpine" route with bolts every three feet, and hopefully the people putting up this route can relate to this sentiment. Mitch, I totally respect your trad values, and I like climbing because it's HARD and SCARY. I learned how to climb when the mantra was "the leader shall not fall", just like you. I've seen the sport (and way of life) become another Mountain Dew life-style commercial venture, and it makes me sick. BUT, we have to realize that these styles will continue to exist (risk-free climbing is like decaffeinated coffee, what's the point??), and we need to promote DIALOGUE, NOT CONFRONTATION! If the route being put up is not overbolted given the consensus grade (I think we can all basically agree what this means, bolts only where necessary for PHYSICAL, not psychological protection), and it is a good climb, I won't get bent out of shape over it. I still think all bolts should be hand-drilled, because it makes the ascentionist REALLY evaluate what bolts are critical for safety. I WILL get pissed if anyone does anything to jeopardize my access to my playgrounds! The recent bolting debacle in Boulder is a good example of a "community" coming together to find a common ground, and common ethic. It may be difficult to identify a specific cross-section of the climbing community that this Wa Pass situation affects, but forums like this are a good start. All of you, please extend your best wishes to the people putting up this route, and hope that they respect the sentiments of those who will follow in their footsteps. Paul Warner

hey max, don't be sorry. that was funnier than shit, and totally on the money! internet directions to an artificial wall..... we've come a long way since Fred was wandering around the Cascades, looking for good climbs, haven't we? I don't think it's progress.

Hey, Thanks for the beta and stories. We plan to do it in late August/early September. If it's too warm, we'll just find some rocks to climb. Keeping the options open is key to good road trippin'. pw

I just have four questions that may help to put this all in perspective: 1) how many bolts have been put in on this route? 2) how many pitches? 3) are the bolts absolutely necessary for the safety of a climber who can lead at the route's consensus grade? 4) will the route attain "classic" status, or is it something that will only be climbed by a handful of people in the next decade? A good example of what's going on here is the route "Sisyphus Summits", on Chinaman's Peak, near Canmore, Alberta. (Canada fer all you rednecks) It is a "fully-equipped" 17 pitch 10d route, clearly visible from downtown Canmore. When it was put up in '94, there was a battle cry to "chop the bolts!", because it didn't fit the tradition of the area. The bolts remained, and it has gone on to be something of a classic (although incredibly risk-free) climb. I'm not advocating indiscriminant "bosching", because I'm kinda old-school, and believe the risk is directly related to the emotional reward, but it seems that a certain amount of different genres and styles are bound to come into existence, and that the climbing community needs to exhibit tolerance for one another. (Except where such styles are clearly not appropriate) I geuss my position on the issue at hand is this: I don't approve of power drills in wilderness or alpine areas, because it makes it too easy (it should be HARD, dammit), and I like to hear nothing but the birds and wind when I venture into such a place. Rap-down ethics? I don't give a shit, as long as the route still demands respect (bolts ONLY where necessary), and placed well and with respect to future climbers. Please respect the mountains, and those who will most certainly follow in your footsteps. PLEASE don't give the government, or any other enforcement agencies a reason to take away our access! Keep it real. PW

hey out there, Has anyone done the N. Face of Diadem peak, up in Canada (North of the icefields)?? I geuss everyone raves about how great it is, but I have yet to talk to anyone who has actually done it. Anyway, I'm mainly interested in the descent. Since it drops into the Wooley creek drainage, does it necessitate a carryover (groan), or could a team bivi at the base and contour around to retrieve ON gear? Any beta would be mucho appreciated. Thanks, Paul Warner ------------------

I've had a few "heart stoppers", mostly when aid climbing, but in twenty years of climbing, no big rides, yet. It's nice to know that pro really works, IF it's placed well, AND the rock is good. Even #0 TCUs, which is really amazing. Here's a couple of bad ones I've seen: 1) The very first time I went ice-climbing was in Hyalite canyon, outside of Bozeman, MT in 1983. There were four of us. Mark had been climbing ice for a few years, but the rest of us were totally inexperienced, and he seemed like an alpine God to us starry-eyed youngsters. He started up a steep 70 foot column, as we watched from the bottom. He placed a screw 15 feet up (the old chouinards that had to be levered in with the pick of an axe. Man, equipment has gotten a LOT better), and continued up, placing another screw at the the midway point. It was early season, and the ice wasn't really solid. Mark placed another screw about 50 feet up, and gunned for the top. He was starting to look a little shaky, but we were all awe-struck, and a little scared at the prospect of trying such a difficult climb, even on toprope. At the exit move at the top, Mark was preparing to swing a tool, and the other tool popped. He pitched off backwards, and the screw fifteen feet below him held just long enough to swing him back into the ice, before it ripped out. He caught the crampon on his right boot on the ice, and instantly sustained a closed tibia-fibula fracture just above the top of his boot. Continuing the fall, he was caught just as he hit the base on his back. We were freaked, to say the least. He was conscious, but stunned, as he had taken a head shot that cracked his helmet. We carried him down through the snow and blow down, got him into the car, and then to the hospital in Bozeman. I told him there was no way I was gonna coninue with this insane sport, but he convinced me that he had misjudged his own abilities so early in the season, not to mention the quality of the ice, and it was a good lesson. I still ice climb, and even though the gear has gotten MUCH better/safer, I play conservatively, and ALWAYS wear a helmet. 2) About five years ago, my partner and I were parked below Washington Pass, packing/racking for Liberty Crack. I had done the route a few times previously, but it was my partners first "big" climb, and we planned on doing it low and slow, and have a good time. (Fix the first three pitches, sleep at the base, jug/climb to belay #8 the next day, bivy on the comfortable sandy ledges, and finish the third day) As we were getting ready, a truck pulled up, and a couple guys from Colorado got out. They planned on Liberty Crack, also, but were going to do it in one day, after fixing the first three pitches. They were racking pins and had a hammer, and I told them it would go clean, especially if they had Leeper cam hooks, which work great on the first pitch pin scars. Anyway, my partner and I humped to the base, racked up, and made it to the belay below the Lithuanian lip, just as the Colorado boys started up. At that point, as if on cue, we saw eight more people hiking toward the route. After they saw our two groups on the route, four of the people turned around, but the other four continued up, heads down at a furious pace. My partner and I had re-racked and stacked the ropes, and were watching the progress of the Colorado guys below us. I was savoring the warm day, the alpine scenery, and the prospect of the next few day's fun. When the group of four dropped their loads at the base, I yelled down, inquiring about their intentions. One of them, who was very red-faced and was ordering his pardners around, shouted they were going to do Liberty Crack. His body language oozed confrontation and tension, but I told him the belays weren't suitable for more than a couple teams, and suggested they do something else in the area, like the East Face of Lexington. He said he'd done it. I suggested the DEB on South Early Winter. "Done it". North Face Burgundy? "Done it." I was getting a little pissed off, and finally just told him I didn't care what he did, but I felt it would endanger our groups if he insisted on trying to establish a party of four on the route with us. (As a side note, how do other people feel about this?? Was I out of line, or is this acceptable climbing etiquette?) The Colorado climbers were at our belay by now, and commented on what an asshole "Mr. Uptight" was. I shrugged my shoulders, and started up. After I got above the lip, I was seperated from the noise and tension below, and relaxed, enjoying the wonderful climbing and exposure. After juqqing up to the next belay, my partner told me "Mr. Uptight" was going for it anyway. I cruised the next pitch, and set up to rap. We had brought a 200 foot haul/jug rope, which covered the 2nd and 3rd pitches. My partner rapped from the 2nd belay down to the belay below the Lithuanian lip, and then I rapped and cleaned the third pitch. I was prepared for a bad scene at the first belay, but after I cleared the lip, there was nobody on the wall, except my partner, who was now rapping to the base. As I rapped the first pitch, in the fading light, I saw blood on the rock. It turns out that "Mr. Uptight" had ripped while aiding the first pitch, flipped upside down, and gashed his head. (He wasn't wearing a helmet) He lost his glasses, too. After I got to the base, I could see his group heading down. We had the base to ourselves, once again. We heated up some ravioli, popped a couple of beers, and relaxed in our sleeping bags, watching a blanket of stars settle on a beautiful alpine scene. The next morning, the Colorado boys woke us up early, after hiking up from their truck. Since they were gunning for it in a day, and only had the first pitch fixed, I offered the use of our fixed rope on the 2nd/3rd pitches. They said they had seen the group of four down on the road the night before, and "Mr. Uptight" was bullying his partners around, and blustering on about what assholes we were! We all had a good laugh, but I felt kinda bad for the guy. He sees climbing as a way to "conquer" nature, and is missing out on the serenity and beauty of the sport. Anyway, the Colorado boys jugged our rope, finished the route in a day, and left their addresses and a five-dollar bill on my windshield. (Buying us a beer) Nice guys. My partner and I strolled casually up the route, and had a great time. Man, I HATE ugly tension in the alpine. I climb to get away from that shit. Sorry this was so long, but I think it's a good story. cheers

The tick capitol of the world has to be the Bitterroot valley in Montana. There is even a Govt. research lab in Hamilton that was set up originally to figure out what caused Rocky Mountain spotted fever. Anyway, a buddy and I climbed My Mom's Muscle Shirt (AKA South Face) on Flathead Buttress, up Blodgett Canyon, in 1994. After humping up to the base, we threw our packs and ropes down, and I noticed black spots on the bright ropes. The ropes were COVERED in ticks! Looking around, we saw thousands of ticks on the rocks and vegetation, many of them filled with blood from a recent deer buffet. We stomped hundreds of them, delighting in the visceral "pop!" each one made when pressured. Needless to say, we were careful to check ourselves carefully before we got into the truck, and after we drove back home. I found a couple of hitchhikers in my pack, but my partner got the worst of it: five days after we got back to Spokane, he was hospitalized with a high fever and blood count indicative of leukemia. He didn't connect the ticks to his illness, but after I heard he was in the hospital, I told his girlfriend it was probably tick fever. She told the docs, and sure enough, they confirmed a diagnosis of Colorado tick fever, gave him some antibiotics, and he was fine two days later. Good thing, they were getting set to give him a bone marrow transplant! He is TOTALLY paranoid about ticks, now, and it's difficult not to have fun with him by yelling "Tick!" every time we go bushwhacking.

To anyone who cares, In no way did I intend my post to be construed as a personal attack on Mr. Twight. I've had the opportunity to go out for a couple of beers with him after he gave a slide show, and I also found him to be friendly, approachable, and full of amazing, funny stories. The point of my post (and it seems I've somewhat accomplished it) was to stimulate thoughtful dialogue concerning his comments in the Climbing magazine article and the Patagonia catalog, and how that kind of attitude/position may be damaging to all climbers in the long run. My hands are certainly not clean when it comes to leaving gear behind in the mountains. I was forced to rap off a picket on Mt. Robson, and I've left my share of V-threads on ice climbs. However, these weren't premeditated actions. To approach a climb with the intent to ditch any gear that becomes a burden (empty fuel bottles, malfunctioning stoves, whatever) strikes me as antithetical to the "Leave No Trace" philosophy that anyone playing in the outdoors should embrace. Look at what a pigsty Everest has become. Admittedly, Twight does routes that almost defy comprehension due to their physical and psychological difficulty, but that's no excuse for what is basically littering (and in relatively pristine settings, at that). ALL climbers and outdoor funhogs need to be concerned about the image they portray in the popular press, lest we find ourselves shut out. (The recent controversy over fixed anchors is a case in point) We need to police (I hate that word, but there it is) ourselves to maintain access, and most of all, promote meaningful discourse regarding issues of concern. I'm sorry if I came off as trying to be "holier-than-Twight", or mean-spirited. I just want to be able to keep climbing in the areas I love, and areas I want to explore, for a long time..... PW ------------------

Hey Everyone, I know this was a formerly (and formally) closed thread, but I can't help it. In the new Patagucci spring catalog, there is one of those normally wonderful little vignettes about outdoor adventure and soul-revealing moments written by Mark Twight. In it, he writes about doing the Czech Direct on the South Face of Denali. I was under the impression that the team left malfunctioning stoves behind on the route (read: littering). But in the Patagucci piece, he is quoted as saying "even though the stoves weren't functioning, we took them along with us." It doesn't surprise me that he would try to greenwash the affair, given Patagonia's commitment to environmental causes, but I have one big question: Did he ever place, in writing, the fact that they left the stove(s) behind?? If so, he's a big fat liar. I don't care how great a climber he is, but without integrity and honesty, he earns nothing but my disdain. If I'm wrong about the way he's portrayed this incident, I'm sorry. But if it turns out that he is changing his story to satisfy his corporate sponsors, screw him, and I'm sorry he is a representative for the "state of the sport". Paul Warner