Good tools for Vertical and Alpine ice

[LuckyMike]

I'm currently looking for some good ice tools for both vertical and alpine ice. I was thinking grivel alp wings or Dmm rebel, or fly ice tools. Any recommendations would be great on these or others that would be good for a newbie.

[Mark_Husbands]

Get a tool that is intended for vertical ice but doesn't have a double leashless spikeless handle (like BD Fusion, Quark Ergo-altough people will alpine climb with these too). aim for the lighter end of the steep ice tool category. people seem to love some of the newer superlight tech tools for alpine, but I personally have to make do with one pair of tools, and I would rather carry a little extra weight on easy alpine ice than try to climb water ice with a lightweight tool.

 

my friend has a pair of those DMM Rebels and they seem awesome. I only got to swing them a couple times. But based on the design they would cross over very well.

[John Frieh]

New BD cobra

[G-spotter]

Get one hammer and one adze. Alpine means possibly placing pins and stuff, and also having to clear crud.

[syudla]

Get one hammer and one adze. Alpine means possibly placing pins and stuff, and also having to clear crud.

 

Yes. I chopped for a good 30 min (well it seemed that long)Trying to get over the 'shrund of the mini-moonflower last month.

[montypiton]

I just bought a pair of DMM Rebels (demoed them in Canada last season, and "fell in love") Bentgate.com is discontinuing them and currently has them on sale @$139.00 apiece - so I felt like I stole them. They have the best grip system I've seen & used for a tool to climb both alpine and waterfall ice, with solid support for leashless use, but retaining a functional spike for use in the cane position on alpine routes. I haven't bought a tool with an adze since the 1980s - realized I never used the adze anyway, and haven't missed having it - hammerhead seems to work just fine for bashing the occasional step or stance. Prior to purchasing the Rebels, I had been climbing on Aztar hammers for several seasons, and like them as well, although I had to modify the grips (installing finger support-triggers) to climb leashless...

[genepires]

think twice about discounting adzes. try digging a t slot with a hammer or pick only.

 

grivel alp wing is a good all purpose tool. I got these and really like them for alpine ice as they are a little longer than the other 50 cm ice tools. And they are good for steep water ice too.

[dbconlin]

I bought my Alp Wings with similar goals in mind. I have been happy with the choice. However, I would probably wait for the new BD Cobra or Viper, which should be out in the Fall...?

[montypiton]

t-slots are my favorite anchors for hard-snow / soft ice - and I have to say I honestly haven't found a lot of difference between constructing them with an adze, or with a hammerhead. I have, however broken the head of a hammer (a brand-new Chouinard Zero north wallhammer on the direct N. Ridge on Stuart in February of 1983)and wished I'd had an extra... if you think its rough constructing a t-slot with a hammerhead tool, try driving a piton with an adze!

[cj001f]

New BD cobra

 

what are the changes coming next year?

[genepires]

um. that is why you have one of each? a hammer and a adze?

[montypiton]

I'll try one last time to make myself understood: For nearly thirty years on alpine climbs I carried a pair of ice tools, one head with an adze and one with a hammer. In September of 1979, descending Mt. Robson, I found it no particular hardship when the tool with the adze broke. I carried on with the hammer tool and hardly missed the adze. In February of 1983, retreating from the direct north ridge of Mt. Stuart, I found myself stranded, unable to build rappel anchors, when the tool with the hammerhead broke.

For several years in the '80s and '90s I carried three tools on big routes (two hammerheads and an adze). Some of my more conservative partners still carry three tools. I stopped carrying a third tool about ten years ago, switched to a pair of hammerheads, and have had no reason to regret not having an adze-equipped tool with me during these years. I do occasionally still carry a tool with an adze (normally a classic-style ice-axe) on glacier routes on the volcanoes, where I don't expect to be building rock anchors. And I have one partner who insists that an adze is absolutely necessary when you need to move a group of porters in tennis shoes across a steep snowslope - (he gets to go places I don't...)

 

Most of the tools you're evaluating are modular design anyway, (the Aztar being an exception), so you'll most likely have the option of changing your initial configuration if you find it not to your liking.

[dbconlin]

um. i still have to go with one hammer and one adze.

[John Frieh]

the new BD Cobra or Viper, which should be out in the Fall...?

 

yes. you can place a preorder with bd now

 

New BD cobra

 

what are the changes coming next year?

 

 

See "new tools" thread by nyc007 in gear critic for additional discussion. New ice screw design also

[LuckyMike]

What do you guys think about the Dmm Rebel vs. the Petzl Quark? I know ice axes are a personal thing, but I held both and they both feel great, the Quark is a bit heavier, and has a rounder handle. Which one would you guys say is a better choice for alpine ice and vertical ice?

[chugachjed]

I really like my petzl aztarex's they are super light swing well and I've used them on alpine and waterfall here in Alaska. Maybe its because I'm big but the light weight doesn't affect my swing much. They stick on the first or second swing in hard brittle cold ice.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I really like my petzl aztarex's they are super light swing well and I've used them on alpine and waterfall here in Alaska. Maybe its because I'm big but the light weight doesn't affect my swing much. They stick on the first or second swing in hard brittle cold ice.

 

Can anyone else vouch for the Aztarex for this role? I've got a similar goal as the originator of this thread. I tried the Quark's this weekend on an outing and liked them. I'm not sure they'd be great for plunging in snow on steep alpine stuff because of the handle shape. A compromise might be the Aztar's, which also have a handle. Any comments out there?

 

The other tool I tried was the Grivel Light. It has a straighter handle/shaft than the Aztar and worked well on the steep ice... not quite as well as the Aztar though.

 

Edited August 6, 2007 by KaskadskyjKozak

[kevino]

I have the aztars, I've been pleased with them so far. Done vertical ice to stuff on ice cliff glacier to NBC on colchuck with them. Only thing is its kind of hard to put them on/off quickly will placing screws.

[John Frieh]

I really like my petzl aztarex's they are super light swing well and I've used them on alpine and waterfall here in Alaska. Maybe its because I'm big but the light weight doesn't affect my swing much. They stick on the first or second swing in hard brittle cold ice.

 

Can anyone else vouch for the Aztarex for this role? I've got a similar goal as the originator of this thread. I tried the Quark's this weekend on an outing and liked them. I'm not sure they'd be great for plunging in snow on steep alpine stuff because of the handle shape. A compromise might be the Aztar's, which also have a handle. Any comments out there?

 

The other tool I tried was the Grivel Light. It has a straighter handle/shaft than the Aztar and worked well on the steep ice... not quite as well as the Aztar though.

 

What role is that? Climbing ice? Yes they climb ice.

 

Quarks plunge fine. So do Aztars and Aztarexs.

 

If the snow is too firm/hard to plunge a quark (or any tool with a fang for that matter) that means it is firm enough to use the ice tool in either piolet ancre or piolet panne position.

 

Chouinard Climbing Ice Chapters 3 and 4 for further discussion.

[kevino]

Very logical thinking!

 

As my paramedic teacher always says:

KISS - keep it simple stupid.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Quarks plunge fine. So do Aztars and Aztarexs.

 

If the snow is too firm/hard to plunge a quark (or any tool with a fang for that matter) that means it is firm enough to use the ice tool in either piolet ancre or piolet panne position.

 

Chouinard Climbing Ice Chapters 3 and 4 for further discussion.

 

The marketing online for axes like the Aztarex make a point of the straight shaft being better for "penetrating" snow. Thanks for the insight (though the sarcasm was not necessary).

 

There is also the weight issue, which would be nice to hear some comments on. Aztarex and Grivel Light Wing make a point of this, as I recall. If it's more market-speak w/o a real need or any other downside, that'd be good to know.

 

And yeah books are great - but just one resource.

 

 

 

[Cobra_Commander]

I actually want a decently-weighted tool. I hate the ultralight axes when I'm trying to get up some short stretch of ice. I always find myself in this situation in ski mountaineering, where some ice steps turn out to be more significant that I expected, and I have some annoying lightweight axe pinging off the ice.

 

This is just my opinion but I find those "hybrid" axes try to do everything and end up not doing anything that well. Anyone who spends a bit of time on long steep routes realizes a pair of quarks or vipers are not going to stop the show because you can't plunge the shaft in. In fact I find the vipers are perfect "hand rails" for running up steep neve, the classic conditions for a traditional axe. Just plung the pick in and the point goes in too (a little annoying with the viper fang, but not too bad), and you have a great little handhold out of the snow/ice.

 

You are certainly going to have a harder time self arresting with them, but you shouldn't be falling if you're focused on a good self belay anyway. And I wager 80% of the time self arrest isn't going to jack for you on routes that would benefit from these tools.

[John Frieh]

No sarcasm meant but I will say I was confused about what "role" you were shopping for... you said you had a goal "similar to the originator of this thread" which rereading it sounds like a pair of tools that climb both "vertical and alpine ice"... yes? I read that as "climbing ice"... yes?

 

Maybe I'm soapboxing here but when I hear "vertical ice" I think "water ice"... additionally when I hear "alpine ice" I think "water ice in the alpine"... unless luckymike/you is referring to schrunds, crevesses, etc which is "glacial ice"

 

water ice is easier to climb with a lighter tool (aztarex, light wing, etc) as water ice isn't as dense as glacial ice. it will require a tad bit more vigilance with one's swing but still doable. glacial ice is more dense than water ice and will require some big shoulder/excellent swing dynamic to get a good stick with light tools. doable but plan on working harder

 

look at it this way:

 

if your goal is routes with lots of slogging and not a lot of ice a lighter tool will be faster (think liberty ridge, etc etc) as though you will be slower on the ice part (as compared to someone with heavier tools) you will be faster on the slog part (less weight to carry)

 

if your forsee a route that has either more ice or some mixed terrain (think curtis ridge) a tool with a little more headweight and some clearance to save your knuckles would be a wiser choice and faster as you dont have to swing as much to get a good stick

 

if you forsee both of these style routes get a heavier tool and just be in better physical condition (5 pullups, 10 pushups, and 15 air squats for every minute on cc.com perhaps )

 

hope this helps!

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I actually want a decently-weighted tool. I hate the ultralight axes when I'm trying to get up some short stretch of ice. I always find myself in this situation in ski mountaineering, where some ice steps turn out to be more significant that I expected, and I have some annoying lightweight axe pinging off the ice.

 

This is just my opinion but I find those "hybrid" axes try to do everything and end up not doing anything that well. Anyone who spends a bit of time on long steep routes realizes a pair of quarks or vipers are not going to stop the show because you can't plunge the shaft in. In fact I find the vipers are perfect "hand rails" for running up steep neve, the classic conditions for a traditional axe. Just plung the pick in and the point goes in too (a little annoying with the viper fang, but not too bad), and you have a great little handhold out of the snow/ice.

 

You are certainly going to have a harder time self arresting with them, but you shouldn't be falling if you're focused on a good self belay anyway. And I wager 80% of the time self arrest isn't going to jack for you on routes that would benefit from these tools.

 

 

Thanks CC!

[KaskadskyjKozak]

No sarcasm meant but I will say I was confused about what "role" you were shopping for... you said you had a goal "similar to the originator of this thread" which rereading it sounds like a pair of tools that climb both "vertical and alpine ice"... yes? I read that as "climbing ice"... yes?

 

Maybe I'm soapboxing here but when I hear "vertical ice" I think "water ice"... additionally when I hear "alpine ice" I think "water ice in the alpine"... unless luckymike/you is referring to schrunds, crevesses, etc which is "glacial ice"

 

water ice is easier to climb with a lighter tool (aztarex, light wing, etc) as water ice isn't as dense as glacial ice. it will require a tad bit more vigilance with one's swing but still doable. glacial ice is more dense than water ice and will require some big shoulder/excellent swing dynamic to get a good stick with light tools. doable but plan on working harder

 

look at it this way:

 

if your goal is routes with lots of slogging and not a lot of ice a lighter tool will be faster (think liberty ridge, etc etc) as though you will be slower on the ice part (as compared to someone with heavier tools) you will be faster on the slog part (less weight to carry)

 

if your forsee a route that has either more ice or some mixed terrain (think curtis ridge) a tool with a little more headweight and some clearance to save your knuckles would be a wiser choice and faster as you dont have to swing as much to get a good stick

 

if you forsee both of these style routes get a heavier tool and just be in better physical condition (5 pullups, 10 pushups, and 15 air squats for every minute on cc.com perhaps )

 

hope this helps!

 

Put it this way: every climb I have done to this point has been grade II, very moderate. The steepest slope might get up to 40 or 45 degrees for a short stretch (mostly snow). Now I plan on getting up some grade III alpine routes (or even steeper grade II) where a second tool would be nice. Think N. Ridge of Baker, Adams Glacier, Fuhrer Finger, maybe Edmunds Headwall and Liberty Ridge. That'll keep me busy for a couple of years. I don't plan on doing vertical waterfall ice in the imminent future, but who knows - never say never.

 

Thanks for the advice!