To the fathers......

[denalidave]

 

KB....true or false?

 

 

Very much true. Matter of fact we try our best to not let him cry for anything. We don’t use the work “no” with him either. Seems to be working. He does not throw tantrums…..at all! Basically we try our hardest to all be meeting his needs.

I certainly understand the concept that kids hear the word no to much and I am just as guilty as the next parent of using it way to much myself. However, how can you go through life without some form of the word no... Daddy, can I play with this loaded gun? I wanna put my hand in hand in that fire... Whether you use the actual word, no, or some other form of it, it is essential to communicate. So if I just give my kid whatever she wants when she cries, what am I teaching that child? Oh, I get my way when I cry hard enough. (Not saying that is what you do though Kev.) There are plenty of times when consoling a crying child is the right thing to do, ie - fall down w/an ouwie or any other various things but that is much different than coddling a child just because they are crying and rewarding a child for crying.

 

All the "experts" will agree, and I agree too with first hand experience, that children need firm boundaries and will actually appreciate you more as a parent when you set such boundaries and stick with them. When we let our children do whatever, whenever, it demonstrates to the child that the parents really don't care enough to to do what is best for the child. I'm not saying that kids understand this on a conscious level but I really have seen it work, not only in my situation but with other parents/kids too.

 

 

Who are the experts you are referring too?

 

I try my hardest to not use the word no with my child. That is not to say I don’t communicate no to him….just like you referenced above. “Miles if you touch the fire you will get burned”…..or for some parents “no” don’t touch that! I certainly don’t let my son do whatever whenever, he has serious structure to his day. He wakes up at the same time every day. Takes a nap same time and bed at the same time.

 

I do give him a WIDE birth when out and about and at the house.……I just follow him around and let him explore and make sure he does not hurt himself. I try my hardest to talk to him before I pick him up or transition him to something else. Even as a baby I would tell him I was going to pick him up to go change his diapers before I touched him……

 

I think a lot of tantrum behaviors have formed in kids because of the parental “boundaries” and “agendas” parents place on there children.

 

 

I believe (to comment on something you said a while ago today) you train a pet and guide your child.

 

 

Call it training or guiding but the principle is the same. My point is to be consistent with whatever form of child rearing. I see to many parents just let their kids walk all over them and all the parents do is keep threatening some sort of penalty/punishment that is never followed through. I think the child ends up feeling less loved by those type of actions than a parent that cares enough to keep a child "in-line". It is never easy but we all do the best we can with the skills we have learned and inherited. By the way, when I say punishment, I don't automatically mean beating a child, although there are rare occasions when I gentle spanking is in order. That said, I can count on one hand the number of time either of my kids actually got a spanking in the past several years.

[sobo]

...That said, I can count on one hand the number of time either of my kids actually got a spanking in the past several years.

So can I: My son: 0, my daughter: 3 (but I'll say 4, cuz I know it ain't more than that). But my wife thinks that a single swat to my girl's butt with my hand, with her clothes on, is child abuse. it's causing problems...

[rob]

Some women just aren't into spanking, sobo. Or CBT.

[kevbone]

I don’t believe in hitting your child or time outs or any of that form of discipline. What I hate to see the most is when parents count…..holy crap I cant even be around that kind of abuse.

[sobo]

CBT?

[rob]

CBT?

 

Ask Archie

[sobo]

CBT?

 

Ask Archie

AAAAAAAAAAAArrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-chieeeeeeeeeeeee (a la Edith Bunker)!!! Can you come in here?

 

:flush:

 

Whadizzit, Edit'??

[dt_3pin]

I'm pretty sure its either Chicago Board of Trade or Cock and Balls Torture.

[denalidave]

I don’t believe in hitting your child or time outs or any of that form of discipline. What I hate to see the most is when parents count…..holy crap I cant even be around that kind of abuse.

So do you believe in any sort of discipline?

 

Counting does work so long as the counter consistently follows through with whatever threat is laid out before the count starts. My wife used to be a big fan of counting but never getting past 2 and then wonder why the kids would not obey her. However, as soon as she would ask them if they wanted Daddy to get involved, they straightened up right away. Not because I was going to hurt them, but because I have been much more consistent in applying discipline. Mom's, in general, tend to be the softies but I've seen it the other way around too. At least now, when she counts, she does follow through with whatever consequence that was originally promised if the behavior did not change. I'm not a big fan of the counting either though, but it does work, if properly applied.

 

[sobo]

Although I've never tried it, I'm no fan of counting. I feel that most kids are testers. They will see just how far they can stretch it before a consequence is applied. Therefore, I feel that this form of "discipline" is just feeding into their natural tendency to test/provoke the parent and delay/avoid the requested task/chore/action.

 

So I ask them in a respectful tone what it is I want them to do. After a reasonable length of time and when/if the refusal is received, I state firmly, "I asked you to do ____________." If at this juncture no action on their part is taken, I immediately get up from whatever it was I was doing and move toward them. It is invariably at this point that they bolt from whatever they were not supposed to be doing into doing whatever it was I initially asked them to do. Is it tiring, always having to stop whatever it is I am doing and get up to get some action out of them? Yes, it is, but I find that they do wholly realize that I will come after them (the all-important "follow through" for which mothers seem to lack the capacity) if they do not do it willingly initially. After a couple of years of this treatment (yes, sadly a couple of years... ), the dividend is now paying off.

 

My son is now nearly expert at compliance immediately. My daughter, not so much. But she is learning that I won't take shit from her like her mother does. And lest you think that I am some sort of ogre for the chores that I have them do, it is always something within their capacity for their age, and typically something that they caused/messed up in the first place, like cleaning up toys/games/etc.

 

Another good tactic is to tell them the chore is helpful to the parents. This has generally always been a good motivator. They take their empty plates/bowls/cups/etc. to the counter or sink after meals because it "helps Mommy (or Daddy, as the case may be that night) to do the dishes faster so we can play with you sooner."

 

We also have what we call "Restaurant Behavior" requirements. You know, no screaming, no blowing bubbles in the milk, etc. We used to make every attempt to park the car where we could clearly see it from the table (they are now on to this practice). If either one or both of them can't handle the restaurant behavior, the offedning party(ies) get to sit in the car until the rest of us are done with our meal. We only needed to enforce this one about twice with each kid so that now it isn't even an issue anymore.

[denalidave]

Although I've never tried it, I'm no fan of counting. I feel that most kids are testers. They will see just how far they can stretch it before a consequence is applied. Therefore, I feel that this form of "discipline" is just feeding into their natural tendency to test/provoke the parent and delay/avoid the requested task/chore/action.

 

So I ask them in a respectful tone what it is I want them to do. After a reasonable length of time and when/if the refusal is received, I state firmly, "I asked you to do ____________." If at this juncture no action on their part is taken, I immediately get up from whatever it was I was doing and move toward them. It is invariably at this point that they bolt from whatever they were not supposed to be doing into doing whatever it was I initially asked them to do. Is it tiring, always having to stop whatever it is I am doing and get up to get some action out of them? Yes, it is, but I find that they do wholly realize that I will come after them (the all-important "follow through" for which mothers seem to lack the capacity) if they do not do it willingly initially. After a couple of years of this treatment (yes, sadly a couple of years... ), the dividend is now paying off.

 

My son is now nearly expert at compliance immediately. My daughter, not so much. But she is learning that I won't take shit from her like her mother does. And lest you think that I am some sort of ogre for the chores that I have them do, it is always something within their capacity for their age, and typically something that they caused/messed up in the first place, like cleaning up toys/games/etc.

 

Another good tactic is to tell them the chore is helpful to the parents. This has generally always been a good motivator. They take their empty plates/bowls/cups/etc. to the counter or sink after meals because it "helps Mommy (or Daddy, as the case may be that night) to do the dishes faster so we can play with you sooner."

 

We also have what we call "Restaurant Behavior" requirements. You know, no screaming, no blowing bubbles in the milk, etc. We used to make every attempt to park the car where we could clearly see it from the table (they are now on to this practice). If either one or both of them can't handle the restaurant behavior, the offedning party(ies) get to sit in the car until the rest of us are done with our meal. We only needed to enforce this one about twice with each kid so that now it isn't even an issue anymore.

 

Yeah, were working on the restaurant behavior. They are pretty good except they like to play this game where one of them is a dog or a cat. So we'll be sitting in the restaurant or whatever public place when one of them yells, "I'm the doggie, I'm gonna sniff your bottom" to the other one. Followed by excessive loud laughing and acting like toddlers. We've almost got that one nipped in the bud butt though. A few more severe beatings in public otta fix em.

 

I know what you are saying about the different theories of discipline causing a problem with Mom. When my wife was pregnant the first time, she insisted that we never spank either child and I reluctantly agreed to try it that way. Once the terrible two's hit (my kids were "advanced" and it only took about 16 months), my wife ended up being the first one to ever spank our kid. Not that it happens very often but it is one of the last things to do when they are really testing those boundaries. Always done with fair warning that if you continue_______, you will get a spanking, and I don't want to give you a spanking...

 

 

[kevbone]

 

Counting does work so long as the counter consistently follows through with whatever threat is laid out before the count starts.

 

Work for whom? The parent? It certainly does not work for the child. The kind of discipline I believe in is talking to your children. If they act up…..they might need to be taken out of the situation for a moment but never hit or any kind of time outs. My wife’s entire family (which is huge) never once has been disciplined with violence (spanking) or time outs and they all turned out kind and gracious. I try to model my parenting with them.

 

 

1……2……(you better do what I say)……..(or else im gonna beat you)……..3……..whip, whip, whip!

 

 

Uh….I don’t think so! All I see with that is the parent pushing there agenda on the child.

 

This is of course…..my opinion.

 

Thanks all for keeping this spray free, and continuing to have a sound (even if we have different styles) discussion.

 

[rob]

All I see with that is the parent pushing there agenda on the child.

 

I kind of get what you're saying, Kev, but think about it....

 

You have to admit that to a certain extent, pushing your agenda on the kid is part of the parent. Brush your teeth, go to bed, clean your room, don't smoke drugs in my house, hide your porn better, etc. etc.

 

If it was all about the kid's agenda, there would be no school, no vegetables, candy all day, comic books, porn and drugs. Not that there's anything wrong with that

 

It's the same thing with this whole "unschooling" idea -- this mythical idea that kids will somehow teach themselves algebra, geometry, etc. if you just leave them to their own devices.

 

If I had been left to my own devices, I would have destroyed the world.

 

[denalidave]

I've heard it said before that sometimes you have to choose between being a parent or the child's friend. Their are times when you can't be both.

 

I also have a hard time with considering a structured spanking a beating. I do see the irony of it... Don't hit your sister or I'm gonna hit you. Again, it is a last resort and rarely does a situation escalate to that. I applaud parents that can bring a healthy, well behaved child up without using corporal punishment but I'm not convinced myself that it does not have it's place. Just the same as I am not one to go out and inflict violence on another adult. However, if someone presents a threat to me or my family, I will certainly do what I have to do to protect us. Does that make me a violent person? I don't think that analogy is really good since we are talking about innocent kids in this thread but I say it just to say that there are often grey areas in life. Raising kids is a challenge in whatever style you do it. Some kids are more strong willed than others but they still need boundaries and will know you love them when boundaries are enforced.

 

I don't like the counting either but my wife still uses it and never uses it to do a spanking. What have you got against time outs? I feel they don't do enough to "punish" the child but that depends on the child/situation too.

 

 

[builder206]

If I had been left to my own devices, I would have destroyed the world.

 

Thank God your humility put the kibosh on that.

Edited June 13, 2008 by builder206

[RuMR]

i'm old school...discussion is not warranted when i've made my mind up...i do not feel that i need to "justify", explain or otherwise get approval from a child about my agenda...

 

my house, my agenda...get with the program...

 

My kids seem happy, well adjusted and solid little guys...they know where the boundaries are and what is expected from them and deviations won't be tolerated...that is love...

 

 

[Dechristo]

The cc.com Tutorial On Fathering belongs in the Pirates Forum.

 

Kev, you and spouse are free (within boundaries) to raise your children as you see fit. As long as your dedication to love remains paramount over your commitment to your pacifistic philosophy, you'll get by. But, the burden is on you. As you've probably found, the relationship with your child carries a poignancy not found in any other bond. The pressing sting is often in the question that must be answered: "Given the circumstance, what is the right thing to do for them?"

 

Like all relationships of weight, if you're goal holds for both of you to continue to learn to love better while seeing your way through the world, at some point, the flexibility will be required to suspend or cast away cherished, longstanding, and tightly held notions.

 

For me, part of the poignancy of parenting was in accepting the irony that those small malleable hearts of love are often best guided along their paths by firm steering boundaries.

[kevbone]

Dechristo that is the most I have seen you write in one post ever! Thanks for sharing.

 

 

Happy Fathers day to you and everyone else......

[minx]

All I see with that is the parent pushing there agenda on the child.

 

 

It's the same thing with this whole "unschooling" idea -- this mythical idea that kids will somehow teach themselves algebra, geometry, etc. if you just leave them to their own devices.

 

If I had been left to my own devices, I would have destroyed the world.

 

yes but clearly you would've had to have learned algebra, geometry, and physics b/c we all know you can't destroy the world w/o those things. unless you're driving a really big SUV. then maybe.

[pink]

All I see with that is the parent pushing there agenda on the child.

 

 

It's the same thing with this whole "unschooling" idea -- this mythical idea that kids will somehow teach themselves algebra, geometry, etc. if you just leave them to their own devices.

 

If I had been left to my own devices, I would have destroyed the world.

 

unless you're driving a really big SUV. then maybe.

 

 

at $4 a gallon who can afford to take over the world

[pink]

 

 

 

 

 

kevbone, your just bitter because you were a step child.

Edited June 16, 2008 by pink

[minx]

All I see with that is the parent pushing there agenda on the child.

 

 

It's the same thing with this whole "unschooling" idea -- this mythical idea that kids will somehow teach themselves algebra, geometry, etc. if you just leave them to their own devices.

 

If I had been left to my own devices, I would have destroyed the world.

 

unless you're driving a really big SUV. then maybe.

 

 

at $4 a gallon who can afford to take over the world

 

that's DESTROY the world, not take it over. get it right! no wonder you don't rule the world. sheesh! don't you know that you can spare no expense when it comes to total world destruction???

[rob]

I decided to let the world live for your sake, Minx.

 

 

You owe me.

[pup_on_the_mountain]

I don’t believe in hitting your child

 

Nn5jlrxcpkI

 

Just kidding... happy Father's Day !!!

[kevbone]

That guy is funny.