Leavenworth Trad Ethics

[Weekend_Climberz]

The question is "Who?"

 

Who is bolting these routes? I know the climbs discussed here are in the Kramar guide, but I don't have it here.

 

I bet the folks bolting up the cracks are sport climbers that simply don't know any better.

 

I would suggest that some of the crack-bolters are sport-climbers who don't know how to climb cracks. Crack climbing is an art that takes practice. Given that a lot of sporto's are gym-graduates, many probably don't have the appropriate skills. Last time me 'n "pope" went to a gym (some place in Seattle), there was a just a little section in the giant complex with a hand crack. We walked right up this thing and most of the gym-rats stared at us like we were a couple of aliens. Not only aren't the sporty masses trained well (or at all) for cracks, they're not trained well to place protection. They learn, in the gym and at the sporty crags, that clippin' bolts is "how it's done".

 

Go ahead....ask this crag-cravin' sport-monkey:

 

I think in this case Raindawgy-dawg is right.

 

[Raindawg]

As a layback it is simply a lot easier to protect and they thought it would see a lot more traffic that way (bolted), which is true- 5.10- bolted, but 5.10+/5.11- on gear only.

 

Is the goal here to "see traffic"? Dumb it down to attract more ants?

 

Gorilla my dreams is another example, although a more extreme one. It could be led on gear, but you'd need multiple big pieces (5-6") whereas Javelin could be led on a single set to 4".

 

So bring some big gear or stay off of it!

 

[matt_m]

The question is "Who?"

 

Who is bolting these routes? I know the climbs discussed here are in the Kramar guide, but I don't have it here.

 

I bet the folks bolting up the cracks are sport climbers that simply don't know any better.

 

I would suggest that some of the crack-bolters are sport-climbers who don't know how to climb cracks. Crack climbing is an art that takes practice. Given that a lot of sporto's are gym-graduates, many probably don't have the appropriate skills. Last time me 'n "pope" went to a gym (some place in Seattle), there was a just a little section in the giant complex with a hand crack. We walked right up this thing and most of the gym-rats stared at us like we were a couple of aliens. Not only aren't the sporty masses trained well (or at all) for cracks, they're not trained well to place protection. They learn, in the gym and at the sporty crags, that clippin' bolts is "how it's done".

 

 

 

Crap like this is why I find myself defending the gym person more than the "old school tradie" I learned "pre-gym" for the record and go out of my way to teach the kids that climb in my gym about gear, natural climbing ethics style etc. Unlike raindawg, who seems to think a holier-than-thou, demeaning attitude is the answer to his "issues", I try to be positive and encourage the "newer generation" to see, do and respect all types of climbing.

I climbed with them at smith (the spawn of the devil area to dawg) - got on the bolted climbs with them, had a great time and they were psyched. Then I said - lets go do these cracks. Guess what, they had a great time and were psyched. Now, they respected my views and as time goes on, I'm able to share my thoughts on grid bolting (negative) slab climbing (positive) etc etc. Guess what? two just started racks and asked when I was heading out to index next? Weird huh?

 

Now imagine if I called them un-skilled sporto gym rats and mocked their abilities while praising my own. Yeah, they'd ignore any advice on ethics or anything else and the rift would grow. Great way to improve climbing knowledge and respect of the natural way.

 

Stop being part of the problem.

Edited June 14, 2007 by matt_m

[billcoe]

If someone is retrobolting climbs where crack pro has been used, the solution to that is simple, pull the mank out. Dawg and I agree.

 

However, if a FA party puts the bolt in, especially if the route has never been done by the hardment of yesterday, or anyone, then you have to suspect a legitament bolt which is there to keep your ass alive - ie, the crack is a loose block or flake on 1 side or pro won't work for some reason.

 

-example-

There was a pic of Croft in a climbing mag not long ago. It appeared he was clipped to a bolt right by a crack. In the ensuing furor he explained that it was an illusion and no pro would have fit in there. Croft is about as pure and as hardman as it gets and would not have lied. The bolt was necessary.

[sapphire25]

As far as I know, people who learn sport climbing in Gyms aren't going up to Leavenworth and bolting the crap out of it. Finding a new route, cleaning it, bolting it etc.. takes a lot of time and know how, that most 'gym sport' climbers don't have. That's not to say that they couldn't learn or don't posses the skills and such. I'm trying to say that sport climbers seek out existing sport routes. And yes, they learn that "cliping bolts is the way to do it" because it's an easier, safer method to learn. There are so many routes in Leavenworth to choose from, so pick your poisen. And if you don't like the existing ones, make your own!! FYI, for those diehard crack fans: there's a new crag that will be in the next book that features amazing routes with cracks/ chimneys of all shapes and sizes (finger jams, hand jams, double fist jams, you name it!!) Mainly trad or light sport/ trad mix. =)

[JensHolsten]

I have a question regarding new routing in Leavenworth and other areas. Why spend money and time bolting silly lumps of rock when challenging, beautiful climbs abound, many of which are lost to dirt and moss from neglect? Wouldn't it make more sense to work your way through the logical progression of amazing rock climbs in WA and elsewhere? As for those silly little lumps, throw a top rope down and climb them too. That way you can have fun on the moves without putting the drill to the rock. This is my train of thought. I am in no way trying to be an ass, just trying to understand other people's vision for climbing.

[catbirdseat]

People want to climb. Most don't want climb mank and don't want to have to clean a route before they can climb it. There are some climbs that have to have an old fashioned scrubbing to stay climbable. No amount of traffic will keep them clean.

[DirtyHarry]

While I don't agree with the way many routes are going up (or down, as the case may be) in 11worth, I would have to say that many of the folks putting up those routes are way strong crack climbers.

[Blake]

The question is "Who?"

 

Who is bolting these routes? I know the climbs discussed here are in the Kramar guide, but I don't have it here.

 

I bet the folks bolting up the cracks are sport climbers that simply don't know any better.

Go out and look for yourself. You will find that in most cases, these "cracks" are problematic on one way or another for trad leading. It most cases, they are either weak flakes, offwidth flakes, laybacks, flares, etc. I'd have to say that in the case of The Javelin that most of those arguments don't fly. As a layback it is simply a lot easier to protect and they thought it would see a lot more traffic that way (bolted), which is true- 5.10- bolted, but 5.10+/5.11- on gear only.

 

Gorilla my dreams is another example, although a more extreme one. It could be led on gear, but you'd need multiple big pieces (5-6") whereas Javelin could be led on a single set to 4".

 

In answer to MCash's question, Ron Cotman did many of the routes at Clem's/Special Spot/Retardant Rock.

 

 

I've got to call BS on that... several of those routes can be perfectly 100% safe to climb if 3 or 4 or 5 bolts were removed (although, like on Perils of Pauline, there were one or two necessary ones)

 

Calling the Javelin .10+ or 5.11 if you had to place gear? Are you kidding Brian?

[JosephH]

IF it's the same crew I've met - they're very thoughtful, experienced and knowledgeable about route development.

 

Not from everything said here. [sport] 'development' maybe, but clearly not trad FA's.

[Raindawg]

Crap like this is why I find myself defending the gym person more than the "old school tradie" I learned "pre-gym" for the record and go out of my way to teach the kids that climb in my gym about gear, natural climbing ethics style etc.

 

Good for you...I'd venture to say that you are in the minority.

 

 

Unlike raindawg, who seems to think a holier-than-thou, demeaning attitude is the answer to his "issues", I try to be positive and encourage the "newer generation" to see, do and respect all types of climbing.

 

I merely addressed a question regarding who might be bolting cracks. Apparently you didn't like the answer, with which others, too, seem to agree. As far as an answer to the problem "issues" is concerned, I didn't provide a solution in my post, demeaning or otherwise.

 

Furthermore, I don't believe all types of climbing are worthy of respect; especially those that leave a permanent mess.

 

P.S....it ain't "all good" and future generations will pay for today's selfishness.

 

I climbed with them at smith (the spawn of the devil area to dawg)

 

Well-characterized.....where the infection on this continent began in earnest and the disease continues.

Ever climb there before it went sporty? Were you even climbing back then?

 

- got on the bolted climbs with them, had a great time and they were psyched. Then I said - lets go do these cracks. Guess what, they had a great time and were psyched. Now, they respected my views and as time goes on, I'm able to share my thoughts on grid bolting (negative) slab climbing (positive) etc etc. Guess what? two just started racks and asked when I was heading out to index next?

 

Why don't you teach them from the get-go? I hope they get plenty of supervision.

 

Now imagine if I called them un-skilled sporto gym rats and mocked their abilities while praising my own. Yeah, they'd ignore any advice on ethics or anything else and the rift would grow. Great way to improve climbing knowledge and respect of the natural way. Stop being part of the problem.

 

You sound really negative yourself, sparky. Pee on the messenger, eh? The fact is, nobody likes to hear that their beloved hobby is ethically dubious. My solution?

First, the problem has to be recognized....I'm doing my part to keep the subject alive because much of the contemporary climbing "community" either doesn't seem to know, care, or plays ignorant that there are serious issues with the dominant paradigm of "sport climbing".

Next, educate people so that at least there is an awareness that things such as "bolts" are controversial, and what the options are.

Next, influence people to see it my way (whether you like my style or not), along with whatever means (informing the Forest Service, land owners, etc. what the issues are).

 

It's the American way....it's a competition of ideas. If you think you've got some better ways or notions, go to it....

 

By the way, your post has a certain deja-vu feeling about it. You sound just like Lambone, who used to post a lot here and whose name is "matt". You be Lambone?

 

 

[Off_White]

I don't think it's Lambone, his access is restored but he doesn't post here much. You can frequently find that Matt over on Supertopo.

[Tony_Bentley]

Okay badasses. Chop the bolts and climb the routes without them. Then come back and spray about it here so we can see how bold you really are. I call bullshit. You only ACT bold because you're sitting on your ass behind a computer.

 

Joseph, Ron climbed this route with me just after he put up those sport routes. I would hardly call it a sport climb.

[JosephH]

These cases sound pretty simple - they aren't sport crags are they? If not, and there is a bolt next to a finger / hand / whatever crack that takes pro, then it's bogus. If that straightforward, common sense test for determining where a bolt is legitimate or not then all of you who think I'm an extremist need to stop and look hard the next time you walk by a mirror. It doesn't matter a rip if who did it or if they got there first - it's flat out inappropriate and fair game for pulling.

[Raindawg]

Okay badasses. Chop the bolts and climb the routes without them. Then come back and spray about it here so we can see how bold you really are. I call bullshit. You only ACT bold because you're sitting on your ass behind a computer.

 

 

Joseph, Ron climbed this route with me just after he put up those sport routes. I would hardly call it a sport climb.

 

The fact that you've apparently climbed trad at some time still doesn't legitimize the sport climbs.

[fenderfour]

The who question will most likely answer "why?". I got the idea that the Special Spot and Clem's Holler were more face/sport oriented. The logical conclusion when your Hilti is sitting at the belay with a half charge is to bolt some more stuff.

 

I haven't climbed perils. I have climbed Javelin, and as discussed, it coud be easily protected with one bolt to make sure the end of the flake didn't break off.

 

Straight street would be easily protected almost the entire way top to bottom. Maybe one or two bolts, tops.

 

[Alpinfox]

 

All of you wankers should shut the fuck up and go climbing.

[fenderfour]

I just got back from Index. Does that count?

[Alpinfox]

Maybe.

 

What did you climb?

 

Pics?

[pdawg]

It seems like we're avoiding the economic realities of sport climbing. For better or worse, there are a lot more climbers out there now, so many that the ancient practice of trad apprenticeship no longer works. Faced with spending a hundred bucks on quickdraws or, say, five hundred for a starter rack, any sensible newbie is going to start clipping bolts.

 

I'm not saying a bolted crack isn't apocryphal: it is. But the guys putting up such routes aren't doing so out of malice. They think they're doing a community service. They think they're making the cliff accessible to the common climber and-regrettably- they are.

 

Now, I'm all for anger. I'm also a big fan of righteous smiting, but this whole angry tradman-prybar-as-phallus thing is counter-productive. Yanked routes are invariably re-bolted while guerilla action taken on individual hangers is downright irresponsible.

 

Barring an Orwellian re-education program (first they came for the Hiltis, then they came for the gym owners, then they came for my verve capris), it seems the only solution is for trad climbers to act- gulp- as ambassadors of the sport. Heck, this doesn't mean we have to take a gymrat climbing! All we have to do is loan him our rack. So what if those multiple 5" pieces are worth more than our car, what's at stake here is the integrity of our sport andthe pristine walls of unseen high valleys everywhere. Do it for the rock...

[ashw_justin]

I vaguely remember climbing at Clem's several years ago, long before I ever owned any pro. It was my first time in the area and it seemed like the only place to find decent sport climbs out there. But Gun Rack and Perils of Pauline as safely protectable gear routes? My memory must be failing me. I only remember the crux moves, and on the latter there was hardly even a damn thing to hold on to, much less protect.

 

What do the Leavenworth regulars think about it? Seems like someone out there would have dealt with it already if there was really a problem.

[Raindawg]

It seems like we're avoiding the economic realities of sport climbing. For better or worse, there are a lot more climbers out there now, so many that the ancient practice of trad apprenticeship no longer works. Faced with spending a hundred bucks on quickdraws or, say, five hundred for a starter rack, any sensible newbie is going to start clipping bolts...

 

... Heck, this doesn't mean we have to take a gymrat climbing! All we have to do is loan him our rack. So what if those multiple 5" pieces are worth more than our car, what's at stake here is the integrity of our sport andthe pristine walls of unseen high valleys everywhere. Do it for the rock...

 

Part of the attraction of sport-climbing is that the learning curve is immensely shallow, providing nearly immediate gratification. When compared with the effort it takes to learn to competently place removable gear, it's hard to compete with the cheap and safe seduction of "clip and go!", so the drills keep drilling to support the less complicated mode that appeals to the most people (despite its contradiction to an outdoors "leave little trace" philosophy that most, ironically, will likely agree to in theory if asked). But the people selling the gear love the big boost in sales to the instant "climbers"!

 

I wouldn't hand any of these guys a rack and tell them to go at it...there's a good chance that they'll misuse it or lose it, most likely scare themselves, and possibly hurt themselves.

How many of these sporto's would drop-out if they were required to spend the time learning to place and remove gear, set up anchors, assess risk, etc? Probably a lot, and I wouldn't miss a one of them.

[Tony_Bentley]

The fact that you've apparently climbed trad at some time still doesn't legitimize the sport climbs.

 

Correct but someone needs to lead them appropriately in order to justify any bolt chopping though. So let us know how it goes.

[Blake]

But Gun Rack and Perils of Pauline as safely protectable gear routes? My memory must be failing me. I only remember the crux moves, and on the latter there was hardly even a damn thing to hold on to, much less protect.

 

What do the Leavenworth regulars think about it? Seems like someone out there would have dealt with it already if there was really a problem.

 

Gun rack is protectable at nd above the crux, at which point the climb is essentially over. The 5.3 slab leading to the chain might be devoid of cracks.

 

As I've said about three times, P.o.P. would take gear the whole way up to a point ~knee high when pulling the crux (crack below your left hand) beyond this point, the easy climbing protected a couple bolts might also be unprotectable by gear.

 

I just don't understand why climbs like Drop Out, and Decathalon, were left unbolted on the crack sections, but the nearby Javelin, Perils of Pauline, and a couple others were just bolted alongside cracks. I'll quit bitching about it now though....

If I actually knew how to pull bolts and patch holes I might do that, but I don't so I wont.

[ashw_justin]

Is he right? Seems wrong to consider chopping without making sure you have enough support for it though. Two wrongs and all... better be sure.