Japanese Garden Anchors Chopped

[RuMR]

Everyone all done feeling important?

...Good, now stop acting like this shit is important.

Harp over pseudo politics, whine about personal ethics, cry about bolts!

Even land managers could fucking care less about shit this stupid.

I declare this thread dead.

Amen.

feel the need to post???

 

 

[fenderfour]

Aid climbers woud probably stay off Japanese Gardens if those anchors weren't there. Aid climbers would have to place 4-5 #5 and #6 cams to get up to the next anchor.

 

That just isn't going to happen.

[EWolfe]

I remember back in the mid-90's, I would get my shoes resoled at Dave Pages.

 

Every time I walked in for a couple of years, I would say to him:

 

"Well, Dave. Wore out another pair of soles trying to do your climb!"

 

His standard response was:

 

"We used aiders when I did it."

 

 

[pope]

The argument that a bolt anchor will lead to a via feratta and zip line, however, is not your best one. Yes, there are a couple via feratta's in the US now, but I am aware of no place in the world where a trad climb had bolts added and this activity led to the construction of a via feratta. Not only that, but a prior discussion on this board has included the idea that there really is no "logical" connection because the rock climber seeks mastery of difficult moves while the Via Feratta eliminates all of that kind of challenge.

 

I never argued that "a bolt anchor will lead to a via feratta and zip line", but that in a high-use climbing area, more generations of climbers will derive more enjoyment by making every reasonable attempt to preserve rock climbs in their most natural state. My argument was that once fixed anchors are employed, the rock is then vulnerable to a variety of interpretations about which "improvements" are appropriate. Once it is acceptable to place bolts in the middle of a crack pitch, this opens the door for those who might advocate other "improvements". Intermediate anchors, bolting RP-cracks, bolting wide cracks, bolting the whole damn pitch! Or chipping a couple of jugs through the crux (which could be avoided by "purists"). I only brought up the possibility of the via feratta to emphasize the idea that many interpretations exist about how to "improve" the climbing experience once we find it reasonable to impose our "improvements" on the rock and all participants in this game.

 

 

I'm not even sure an acceptance of bolted belay anchors at a "trad" climbing area has anywhere led to the proliferation of bolted protection for crack climbing, but perhaps there is an example somewhere. Anybody?

 

Well, Matt, here's a guy you know who thinks clipping those bolts for protection is better than carrying one fat cam:

 

The station is historical and it makes the pitch more fun. I clip a long sling on the bolt and punch it through the layback. It sucks to have to lug big stuff up their.

 

There you have it.

[mattp]

One group wants an anchor, next year they want bolts next the crack, maybe some future group wants a via ferrata up to an observation deck and perhaps a zip line back to the parking lot.

Well, Matt, here's a guy you know who thinks clipping those bolts for protection is better than carrying one fat cam:

 

Again, I repeat my argument that it does not follow that if we have this one or even several bolted belays there will next be bolts added along side the cracks for pro and I have asked if anyone has seen where this has happened in the past, and as yet we have no examples - and certainly not any indication that this would be the expected outcome. Further, if a via feratta is not a likely outcome either, why do you keep bringing the possibility of a via feratta up?

 

I agree with the following:

 

many interpretations exist about how to "improve" the climbing experience once we find it reasonable to impose our "improvements" on the rock and all participants in this game.

 

This statement, however, applies equally to the construction of trails to reach a crag, maintaining rappel anchors whether bolted or not, fixing pitons, replacing old bolts, cleaning cracks, or clearing off loose rock. The "door has been open" to varying opinions as to which types of improvements are appropriate and where for as long as there have been climbers.

[pope]

Again, I repeat my argument that it does not follow that if we have this one or even several bolted belays there will next be bolts added along side the cracks for pro and I have asked if anyone has seen where this has happened in the past, and as yet we have no examples - and certainly not any indication that this would be the expected outcome.

 

My argument was never that a belay anchor will necessarily lead to bolted cracks or even a via feratta. I simply stated that this particular anchor is not appropriate. The anchor in question soils one of the best crack pitches in Washington. The anchor in question does not define the logical conclusion of any pitch....unless climbing the moves above at a 5.11 standard is not logical. Most of the arguments I've read supporting the anchor fall on the side of utility. Apparently a number of climbers who do not climb 5.11 are provided with a pitch of moderate climbing thereby. Apparently this benefit is worth the price of a pair of bolts not far off the ground, just below where this excellent pitch gets serious.

 

I brought up bolted cracks, chipped holds and the via feratta because they are logically consistent with the arguments presented in favor of this anchor. If we think that the access and convenience provided by a mid-pitch anchor are worth the sacrifice of soiling Japanese Gardens, one must at least speculate about what other "improvements" might be logically justified in the name of access and convenience. There are many examples of bolting cracks in the name of access, convenience and creating traffic that have been discussed in this forum. The arguments offered are remarkably similar to those found in this thread supporting the anchor on Japanese Gardens.

 

many interpretations exist about how to "improve" the climbing experience once we find it reasonable to impose our "improvements" on the rock and all participants in this game.

 

This statement, however, applies equally to the construction of trails to reach a crag, maintaining rappel anchors whether bolted or not, fixing pitons, replacing old bolts, cleaning cracks, or clearing off loose rock. The "door has been open" to varying opinions as to which types of improvements are appropriate and where for as long as there have been climbers.

 

That's a pathetic equation. Cleaning cracks and clearing a little loose rock do not impose the degree of engineering and the obvious evidence of human impact that bolts do. Bolts are not only ugly and alien to the natural experience, they also offer an incredibly cheap and lazy solution to finding security. They offer a nearly perfect security that can be achieved with almost no requirement of skill or craft.

 

 

Again, I repeat my argument that it does not follow that if we have this one or even several bolted belays there will next be bolts added along side the cracks for pro and I have asked if anyone has seen where this has happened in the past, and as yet we have no examples - and certainly not any indication that this would be the expected outcome.

 

I provided an example of a climber who thinks these very bolts offer protection (not a belay) that is more convenient than carrying a large cam. There's your example.

 

 

[mattp]

In the case of Japanese Gardens, Pope, I think you are dead wrong where you write that "cleaning cracks and clearing a little loose rock do not impose the degree of engineering and the obvious evidence of human impact that bolts do." I have talked to the FA and he said they named it "Japanese Gardens" for a reason. Thirty five years have passed, and clean corners and cracks look "natural" now, but when it was first climbed the degree of engineering, and the resulting impact was far greater than the subsequent drilling of even a dozen bolt holes now.

 

As I stated in my first post to this thread, I always thought it was vaguely silly to have anchors in that location. I think I may understand why the recent installation of chains was seen by somebody as "too much," but if we are going to talk about "impact," lets look at the whole and not just the holes.

[AlpineK]

I agree with that. If we wanted Index to be back to it's natural state we would be out putting soil, moss, ferns, and other small trees and plants back in the cracks. You'd have to leave Western Washington to do any climbing on rocks that hadn't been scrubbed.

 

Basically every thing that climbers have done has drastically altered the natural state of things.

[Alex]

lets look at the whole and not just the holes.

 

Man, thats a great one!

[mattp]

I agree with the sentiment, but there is a variety of situations at different crags, Mr. K. I wouldn't say that everywhere in Western Washington would be or was unclimbable without intensive cleaning - many of the climbs at Darrington or Mount Erie, for example, were established with relatively little cleaning, and then there are all the great climbs on the higher peaks that were established with virtually none. But in a very real way the amount of engineering and alteration of the natural environment that went into Japanese Gardens was far greater than that associated with some bolted pillar at Vantage.

 

Paradoxically, I'd venture a guess that an aid ascent of Japanese Gardens - an ascent following in the tradition of the first ascent - might even be safer and in many respects less "daring" than an ascent of same pillar at Vantage, where the holds you stand on and the bolt you clip to are likely to fail due to poor rock quality! I haven't done JG, though, so maybe there is some sketchy aid far from pro involved in an aid ascent --- but I doubt it. And what of a free ascent - is there any difficult gear placement involved? Provided you bring a huge rack and are strong enough to use it, even a free ascent might actually be safer than some randome climb at Vantage!

 

Admittedly, a comparison of Japanese Gardens with some bolted arete at Vantage is of limited usefulness, but my point is that things are not always one dimensional and an exclusive or overactive focus on bolts, or any other aspect of climbing for that matter, clouds our vision of the sport.

[richard_noggin]

Let's put Index back to it's natural state ...let's meet at the capital steps and we shall haul the olympia capital steps back to Index

Fluck'n get a grip...all this spray about a set of anchors...what are you a bunch of Laywers or x prez-a-dents of the debateing team in collage..just like to debate ...it's a fluck'n quarry with greenery growing everywhwere... if you don't want to clip the anchors just climb on...climbers are the most wacked out bunch next to camel toed spandex bycycle riders I have ever come accross.

Flick my bic

DICK

[lancegranite]

yeah.

[Jens]

Well spoken Mr.Noggin.

[EWolfe]

True that.

 

I once posted that the quarrying of Index to make the steps to the House of Policy was creating a climb of lesser physical challenge, but a climb nonetheless.

[pope]

In the case of Japanese Gardens, Pope, I think you are dead wrong where you write that "cleaning cracks and clearing a little loose rock do not impose the degree of engineering and the obvious evidence of human impact that bolts do." I have talked to the FA and he said they named it "Japanese Gardens" for a reason. Thirty five years have passed, and clean corners and cracks look "natural" now, but when it was first climbed the degree of engineering, and the resulting impact was far greater than the subsequent drilling of even a dozen bolt holes now.

 

Dude, put on your thinking cap, or at least let me know when you're kidding around. Everybody knows that routes like that were cleaned, either as a consequence of deliberate cleaning or as a result of steady traffic, or both. But if you're going to call this "engineering", you're definitely stretching the definition of the word. Even among those who object to scrubbing moss off a route, few would consider climbing clean rock to be an experience that out of the ordinary. Few would say that clean rock is an intrusion on the cliff's natural aesthetics in quite the same way that a line of bolts is. And I don't think you believe this either.

 

Furthermore, what is the intent of your statement? Are you suggesting that once a mossy climb is scrubbed, it should no longer be considered natural, and that in that case we should have no reservations about the placement of highly visible, shiny bolts? Are you suggesting further that because Japanese Gardens has been scrubbed, there is no basis for appealing to the "most natural state" ideal when objecting to bolts placed next to a crack? And if this is the case (Lord help us if you're really that far gone), on what grounds would you/could you object to bolting the entire pitch?

 

I think this last question is the most important. I don't think it is unreasonable to think that there are climbers who would advocate bolting the wide 5.10 crack above the belay in question. We're already seen this happening at NW crags. The justification is always convenience. I'm seriously interested to hear how you'd go about objecting in this case. Maybe you wouldn't.

 

... but if we are going to talk about "impact," lets look at the whole and not just the holes.

 

Thank goodness that isn't the most clever thing you've contributed in the last few years.

[richard_noggin]

there at it again :yawn:

give it up this tread is dead like that old dead penis that you look down at, that just won't get up any more...my dead grandma has more life than you old phucks

Dick Head

[EWolfe]

The reactive, narrow personas behind the avatars will never resist the temptation to spew their singularity of thought.

 

Isn't it awesome?

[mattp]

Mr. Dick: whyare you so threatened by such a discussion? If, as you say, there is nothing new here? (And I believe you are correct about this point.) You can watch a different channel.

 

Pope: in deference to Mr. Dick, I give up. If you can't see why you are full of crap here based on information already exchanged, I'm certainly not going to make any further progress. And I say this even though I more or less AGREE with you that \the particular set of anchors in question was rather silly.

 

If you want to discuss where or under what conditions bolted anchors might be appropriate, I think it could be a worthy discussion - if it was more than the Matt 'n Pope show that Mr. Dick is so unhappy about.

[AlpineK]

This whole thread is a dog and pony show. I like looking at this thread since it gives me something to laugh about.

 

Thanks for the entertainment.

 

If you want to take it to the next level both sides should send a crew out to carry on this discussion with people actually climbing at Index. You could watch a group climbing then one side could berate the climbers for being pussys and clipping unneeded bolts while the other side could keep chanting, "now that's a great bolt."

 

Then both sides could get into a fight just like West Side Story.

[pope]

Matt, don't be too flattered, but I generally ignore what Richard Noggin and Mr. E have to say (whole bunch of nothin') and go right to your generally thoughtful essays. I don't understand the nature of their objections. I can only infer that folks who see no value in this discussion but simultaneously find time to chime in with sophomoric drivel...these must be among the most bored and small-minded people on the planet.

[richard_noggin]

Matt, don't be too flattered, but I generally ignore what Richard Noggin and Mr. E have to say (whole bunch of nothin') and go right to your generally thoughtful essays. I don't understand the nature of their objections. I can only infer that folks who see no value in this discussion but simultaneously find time to chime in with sophomoric drivel...these must be among the most bored and small-minded

people on the planet.

 

Erectile disfunction

 

You two remind me of a couple of school girls on the phone for hours and talk'n about nothing ...you do realize that the only ones taking the time to read your loooong essays are you two

 

Matt is right I should just ignor this tread, but like you two I also like to here myself talk.

Dick Head