Clipping into the belay?

[kurthicks]

http://guidetricksforclimbers.com/cloveHitch.art.html

 

"When the knot was tied incorrectly, with the load strand farthest away from the spine of the carabiner, it was found that the knot tried to align itself with the spine at 250 lbs., and carabiner failure occurred–before rope breakage–at approximately 38% below the carabiner's rated strength."

[catbirdseat]

The biner will fail at 3000 lbs instead of 5000 lbs. Your protection will pull out long before the biner fails.

[chris]

The biner will fail at 3000 lbs instead of 5000 lbs. Your protection will pull out long before the biner fails.

Check again, especially at the bottom. With a 9mm rope, correctly tied knot failure was at 2600 lbs, meaning an incorrectly tied knot could cause a carabiner failure as low as 1560 lbs. Not inconceivable to have this occur before your gear fails.

The point of the article was to be aware, and be careful.

And for what its worth, the clove is considered a suitable tie in knot without a "backup" by the ACMG and AMGA.

Edited April 11, 2007 by chris

[catbirdseat]

Hmmm...I guess it's worth tying correctly. I usually clip my daisy to the first piece of gear I place or one of the bolts if it's a bolt anchor, and leave it there. That's my backup.

[chris]

I hear you. I don't climb with a daisy anymore. Another cool feature of a clove is that it can be tied one-handed on the biner.

[catbirdseat]

One of these days I'll get around to replacing my daisy with a Metolius PAS.

[bstach]

Whats the big deal with the Metolius PAS? Seems like a waste of $$ to me.

 

I use a clove on the climbing rope on the way up, sling on the way down.

[catbirdseat]

They are nice because you can clip into both bolts with it (with two carabiners, of course) and you can adjust your distance from the anchor with it. All points are full strength.

 

If you use only a clove hitch, you'd best back that up with an eight.

[mattp]

And for what its worth, the clove is considered a suitable tie in knot without a "backup" by the ACMG and AMGA.

 

True, but I have always been surprised by this. Set up a test anchor biner that is somehow fixed in place such as maybe loaded with something else hanging from it. Then tie a clove hitch to it and wiggle and whip the ends around. It is distressingly easy to deform the "knot" and open it up so that it looks not at all like any kind of knot but merely some loose loopes around a carabiner.

 

I have actually had this happen spontaneously while I was messing around with haul bags and stuff at a belay. I haven't tested it, but I bet the "knot" will slip a ways before it catches again (I hope testing would reveal that it will always catch again, but I have seen this result in loops running through the "top" of the carabiner in such a fashion that I could imagine it might be possible for a pull from the wrong direction to cause one to spontanesouly unclip). Anyway, it is distressing. I'm guessing this is why it is called a "hitch" and not a "knot." I never rely on a single clove hitch for an anchor even if it may be AMGA approved.

 

I have discussed this with several guides and they have uniformly rejected my concern.

[kurthicks]

The hitch is called a hitch because it must be tied around something to maintain it's shape and function (e.g. prusik, Garda, clove, munter, bachman, etc); whereas a knot remains intact even if the object it is tied around is removed.

 

as you mention Matt, the clove hitch MUST be snugged down before being weighted. cloves do stay tight, however, if they remain constantly weighted.

[AlpineK]

Normal daisies are full-strength slings from end-to-end but the bar tacking in each pocket is weaker. I think ez-daisies are body weight only.

 

My understanding that you can overcome this by always clipping into the ends. Once you've done this then you can reclip one biner into a midpoint in the daisy.

[G-spotter]

If you have the same biner clipped into the end and the midpoint of the daisy, and the pockets rip, the biner will end up unclipped from the daisy and you will have a blown out loop not connected to the anchor .

 

Basically a PAS is a daisy with every pocket full strength. It costs like $5 more than a regular daisy and weighs about the same but is much more versatile. I don't know why I didn't switch earlier cause the PAS is great!

[counterfeitfake]

Normal daisies are full-strength slings from end-to-end but the bar tacking in each pocket is weaker. I think ez-daisies are body weight only.

 

My understanding that you can overcome this by always clipping into the ends. Once you've done this then you can reclip one biner into a midpoint in the daisy.

 

Black Diamond had a video about this a while back. The important thing is to never clip the end AND a pocket with the same biner, because then the only thing holding you to the anchor is bar tacking. You can also remove this concern by tying a knot at the far end just before the anchor biner.

[dbconlin]

Normal daisies are full-strength slings from end-to-end but the bar tacking in each pocket is weaker. I think ez-daisies are body weight only.

 

My understanding that you can overcome this by always clipping into the ends. Once you've done this then you can reclip one biner into a midpoint in the daisy.

 

Black Diamond had a video about this a while back. The important thing is to never clip the end AND a pocket with the same biner, because then the only thing holding you to the anchor is bar tacking. You can also remove this concern by tying a knot at the far end just before the anchor biner.

 

But, at least in theory if difficult in practice, you can remedy this by putting a twist in the daisy. Right?

[catbirdseat]

Yes, you are correct. You can also use two biners as BD recommends. You can also tie an overhand knot near the end loop.

[kurthicks]

or just use the rope and not worry about the limitations of equipment that is being used for something other than it's intended purpose.

[montypiton]

wow! this thread has done well! I was wondering whether anyone would question the clove-hitch as main anchor tie-in. Like Mattp, I prefer the 8. While either will satisfy the load requirements when tied correctly (and it doesn't matter what knot or hitch you use if you're not tying it correctly!) I find the 8 more convenient for my climbing/belaying style. The loop it creates gives me one more place to hang stuff at a belay station. For those who like the adjustability of the clove, try running your belay rope through a carabiner at the focal point and then clipping a figure-8 knot to your harness. This yields adjustability of tie-in length, while retaining the security of a "knot" (rather than a "hitch" - kurthicks defines the difference above). For those who are addicted to the daisy, try the "prussik upon itself" - tie a double-length runner of 7mm perlon, then prussik-hitch one end of this runner around the other end, and girth-hitch this to your harness' belay loop. This yields an adjustable personal anchor system of belay strength, not to mention being substantially less expensive than any factory daisy. Call me a Luddite, but I guess I just never have found the arguments in favor of sewn runners (of which daisy chains are but one version) particularly compelling, compared to the versatility of a piece of rope.

[dbconlin]

wow! this thread has done well! I was wondering whether anyone would question the clove-hitch as main anchor tie-in. Like Mattp, I prefer the 8. While either will satisfy the load requirements when tied correctly (and it doesn't matter what knot or hitch you use if you're not tying it correctly!) I find the 8 more convenient for my climbing/belaying style. The loop it creates gives me one more place to hang stuff at a belay station. For those who like the adjustability of the clove, try running your belay rope through a carabiner at the focal point and then clipping a figure-8 knot to your harness. This yields adjustability of tie-in length, while retaining the security of a "knot" (rather than a "hitch" - kurthicks defines the difference above). For those who are addicted to the daisy, try the "prussik upon itself" - tie a double-length runner of 7mm perlon, then prussik-hitch one end of this runner around the other end, and girth-hitch this to your harness' belay loop. This yields an adjustable personal anchor system of belay strength, not to mention being substantially less expensive than any factory daisy. Call me a Luddite, but I guess I just never have found the arguments in favor of sewn runners (of which daisy chains are but one version) particularly compelling, compared to the versatility of a piece of rope.

 

uhh, i don't get how your suggestion of an 8 to your harness through a carbiner in the anchor makes it adjustable. no matter how you look at it, a figure 8 is not adjustable. please explain.

[chris]

And for what its worth, the clove is considered a suitable tie in knot without a "backup" by the ACMG and AMGA.

 

True, but I have always been surprised by this. Set up a test anchor biner that is somehow fixed in place such as maybe loaded with something else hanging from it. Then tie a clove hitch to it and wiggle and whip the ends around. It is distressingly easy to deform the "knot" and open it up so that it looks not at all like any kind of knot but merely some loose loopes around a carabiner.

 

I have actually had this happen spontaneously while I was messing around with haul bags and stuff at a belay. I haven't tested it, but I bet the "knot" will slip a ways before it catches again (I hope testing would reveal that it will always catch again, but I have seen this result in loops running through the "top" of the carabiner in such a fashion that I could imagine it might be possible for a pull from the wrong direction to cause one to spontanesouly unclip). Anyway, it is distressing. I'm guessing this is why it is called a "hitch" and not a "knot." I never rely on a single clove hitch for an anchor even if it may be AMGA approved.

 

I have discussed this with several guides and they have uniformly rejected my concern.

 

Matt, I'd argue that an appropriately tightened clove will not "shake-out" as you've described in normal circumstances. At least, it never has for me.

Any knot, and any technique, needs to be applied appropriately.

[catbirdseat]

The biner will fail at 3000 lbs instead of 5000 lbs. Your protection will pull out long before the biner fails.

Check again, especially at the bottom. With a 9mm rope, correctly tied knot failure was at 2600 lbs, meaning an incorrectly tied knot could cause a carabiner failure as low as 1560 lbs. Not inconceivable to have this occur before your gear fails.

The point of the article was to be aware, and be careful.

And for what its worth, the clove is considered a suitable tie in knot without a "backup" by the ACMG and AMGA.

A friend of mine prompted me to go back and look at this post of yours. I think that you are confusing knot failure with biner failure. If I read the report correctly, the knot always failed before the biner. Actually the report was rather confusing and incomplete.

[catbirdseat]

For those who are addicted to the daisy, try the "prussik upon itself" - tie a double-length runner of 7mm perlon, then prussik-hitch one end of this runner around the other end, and girth-hitch this to your harness' belay loop. This yields an adjustable personal anchor system of belay strength, not to mention being substantially less expensive than any factory daisy.

This system is called a Purcell Prusik and I have used it. I quit using it because I couldn't find an adequate way to store it when I wasn't using it. It would always dangle down and one time I reached down to pull up rope to clip and ended up clipping through my Purcell, thus fatboying myself. That was it for the Purcell. I went back to the Daisy.

[Blake]

I'm with CBS. if you are using a daisy, just do an overhand knot in the webbing before the last loop. keep your biner always clipped in to the last loop and shorten up as needed.

[montypiton]

dbconlin - by running the belay rope through a biner at the focal point of your anchor, then positioning yourself at your optimal stance, then tieing a figure8 in the strand running to your partner, you create an easy to adjust personal anchor. true, in order to change your distance to the focal point, you must tie another figure-8 and clip that to your harness before removing the first. I suppose you could substitute a clove hitch at your harness for the figure8 knot. then you could adjust your distance to the focal point by loosening and slipping the clove. Either way, the key to easy adjustability is to have the hitch or knot at your harness-tie-in point instead of at the focal point biner. If your clove or figure-8 is made on the focal-point biner, you have to position yourself within reach of that biner to adjust your anchor length. With the system I describe, you can make adjustments from any position, regardless of the distance to the focal point of your anchor.

[ken4ord]

What is the proper way for a leader using a single rope to “clip” into the power point of a pre-equalized belay anchor? Mark Twight vaguely suggests clipping in, Freedom of the Hills shows tying in with your end of the rope using a clove hitch. Is it acceptable for the leader to clip into the power point with a daisy chain and locking biner and clip the climbing rope into the power point locking biner without tying off the climbing rope to that biner? I’ve learned to tie in using a clove hitch, in this way the rope is directly secured to the anchor and the daisy chain is for your own protection, not the teams. Any thoughts?

 

 

Most of the time I tie in with the rope. Situation where I don't are if I am not swapping leads, if there is freezing rain or if I am on rappel. Those other times I just use a sling and stay weighted on it so that I don't shock load the anchor if I slip. I have never bothered with daisy chains (unless aiding) or any of the new system that are out there, I just feel cluttered what that shit is girth hitched onto my harness (especially since I tend to mainly rack on the harness).

[Rad]

I am a simpleton who could stand to learn how to properly use a clove hitch, but this is pretty idiot-proof:

 

Figure 8 = Knot to tie harness to rope.

Figure 8 = Knot to tie rope to anchor at top of pitch.

Figure 8 = Knot that ensures I don't rappel off the end(s) of the rope.

Figure 8 = Knot to tie behind belay device so I can keep partner safe but free my hands for something (e.g. sort rack and flake rope at belay before partner leads next pitch).

 

I keep a sling girth-hitched on my harness for clipping into anchors. When I rappel, this is the last thing I undo after I check the anchor, my harness buckle, and my rap device/locking carabiner. This sling is often the first thing I clip to the anchor, but I may undo it after a knot is in place if it is too short.

 

In most cases I belay directly off my harness. In addition to reducing loads on the anchor, it is usually faster and requires less force. The times I belay off the anchor are when my partner (plus pack) is large and expected to fall/hang substantially.