Removing stoppers from rock

[catbirdseat]

Thanks for the info Kurt. I was practicing an easy pitch that I would rate at about 5.2. It was only about 20-25 feet high. No, I didn't have a toprope. I fell on the chock to test my belayer, who I had never met before. I think that I sort of know where layback crack is, but I didn't have any gear for that.

I'm going to be straight with you. You should not be falling on gear until you have a great deal of experience in placing gear and in judging when it is or is not safe to fall. You can test your belayer on a sport climb, that is on a clipped bolt, but trad climbing is not the place to be doing that. If you want to know if your partner knows his stuff ask other people if they have climbed with the person and ask the person about their experience.

[G-spotter]

Yeah, please post your climbing resume for catbird to examine. If he approves of it he will allow you to take a fall

[mattp]

I was practicing lead climbing at Granite Point

Generally when one is "practicing" lead climbing, it is done on top rope. The "leader" places gear and clip a line that you are trailing into that gear, all while protected from decking by the top rope. Without a top rope, you are actually lead climbing--with all of the potential for accidents/injury/death that come along with leading.

 

That is "generally" how it is done today, and I have always found it slightly odd. While it is certainly true that this is a safe way to practice leading, I think that not long ago it was very rare to see anybody doing this.

 

When I was a pup, you followed until you felt ready to try leading. You learned how to place nuts and decide where to place them by following, and finding which ones were easy or hard to remove, watching your partner to see which ones caused rope drag, or whatever. Instead of "practicing" leading with a top-rope, you waited until you reached a point where you felt ready and then you went out to lead climbs where the pro was generally agreed to be more or less straight forward. If you misjudged a situation, you had to hold on and figure it out or you had to downclimb back to a point of security.

 

While the modern method of practicing on a toprope is obviously safer in the sense that you described, I would not posit it as the only responsible way to learn to lead and I think it provides less opportunity for the beginning leader to develope judgment and psyche if they rigidly cling to a system where all risk and exposure is eliminated. Any organized club group should probably do as you suggest. One who may be learning from a friend who is serving more as a mentor may not need to avoid a "real" lead until they've climbed "x" number of pitches in the fashion which you describe.

[shapp]

I agree with Matt 100%, Matts experienc is how I and all of the long term trad partners I have had learned to climb. I have never actually seen anyone learning to lead on toprope. Conversely, nor have I seen any accidents learning the the apparent "old school" way.

[crazy_t]

isn't it pretty well established that this guy is a "troller"? He's getting some good laughs somewhere, as is Chaps.

[catbirdseat]

If he is indeed a troller, than his posts represent abuse because they are in the Newbie forum.

[roboboy]

He's not a troller, just a newbie with a lot of enthusiasm.

[Jamin]

I only would have fallen about 4 feet if my belayer had failed to hold me. You can almost reach the stopper from the ground. The way I practice leading is to just place excessive amounts of pro. One of them has to hold. I yank downward on every stopper to make reasonably sure that it is a solid placement.

 

Thank you for your input and concern guys. I have learned a good bit from you. I will learn all this stuff eventually.

[kevbone]

I went climbing this past weekend and had to leave a stopper behind. It was wedged pretty deep into the crack the wrong way, and I couldn't get it out. I had fallen on it. Are there any techniques or special tools that you guys use to remove chocks once they are really, really stuck. I have had problems removing chocks from cracks previously, but I never lost one before.

 

Experience is the only thing you will need. I have found that the more I climb the better I get at getting stuck nuts out. When I started climbing I was horrible at it. Keep it up. Once in a while you will have to leave gear. Its sucks, but oh well.

[Gary_Yngve]

The other thing I see is beginners reaching for their nut tool the instant they see a nut. I'd say something like only 10% of the time do I actually need the nut tool for removing a nut (free climbing, not aid).

[OrganDonor]

What the hell is a "troller"? I'm curious?

[Winter]

someone who makes shit up or pretends to be a complete jerk off just to get a bunch of other people to jump in with excessive flaming and ridicule - ala trolling for tuna.

[counterfeitfake]

If I was belaying someone and they took a fall to "test" me without warning, they'd be soloing the rest of the day.

[kevbone]

If I was belaying someone and they took a fall to "test" me without warning, they'd be soloing the rest of the day.

 

No shit.

[Bug]

If I was belaying someone and they took a fall to "test" me without warning, they'd be soloing the rest of the day.

 

No shit.

Ditto.

Jamin, you are at it again. Find a mentor and humble yourself before him (her). Your life is again on the brink.

All the best to you and your karma.

Bug

[Jamin]

I warned him guys. All right, my participation in this topic is over.

 

[counterfeitfake]

I warned him guys. All right, my participation in this topic is over.

 

Excellent, now the real shit-talking can begin.

[bstach]

I warned him guys. All right, my participation in this topic is over.

 

Shame on you guys for making the newbie feel bad. This isn't spray, this is the *newbie* forum. Be kind.

[Bug]

Nothing is kinder than pointing out mistakes that have a high probabability of causing injury or worse.

Jamin has an open invitation to recieve some hands on training in safe practices. He chooses to continue to "test" the people he is with and they have, in at least a few cases, been unsuspecting newbies themselves.

I am genuinely sorry if I have hurt anyone's feelings. But I stand by my assessment. If you think I do this lightly, do a search on my posts in the newbies forum.

People die in this sport.

We have to call each other on it if we see someone heading in that direction.

Peace.

[ckiely]

Troll or not, back to the subject at hand.

 

I've had some success with removing nuts by threading the wire up through the stopper (I have Metolius nuts), and pulling on it from above. If it's really stuck, I'll hook my nut tool onto the wire and pull like hell.

 

Obviously it doesn't work everywhere, but another solution to add to the pile.

[high_on_rock]

if we drive a guy away from seeking advice by telling him what an idiot he is, I think we have done a disservice. Merely my thought.

[ericb]

if we drive a guy away from seeking advice by telling him what an idiot he is, I think we have done a disservice. Merely my thought.

 

all of us for that matter....I don't think I've ever laughed harder than when I read the story about his crampon incident. It's the only climbing board story I've ever read to my wife.

[G-spotter]

pretty much for anyone new to the sport,

 

if you don't know your belayer that well, taking a deliberate lead fall to test them is not a good idea. if they catch you they will think you are an idiot and if they don't catch you you will experience groundfall

[kurthicks]

Jamin, you are at it again. Find a mentor and humble yourself before him (her). Your life is again on the brink.

All the best to you and your karma.

 

 

I know Jamin. He is not a troll. He has been a transient participant in the WSU Alpine Club for this academic year, learning of the club from pup_on_the_mountain with whom he climbed Dome Peak with this past summer.

 

The following discussion is intended to make other cc.comers aware of the considerations and concerns that I have regarding Jamin so that they are not caught unaware of him.

 

 

Jamin has exhibited a constant disinterest towards learning even the most basic climbing concepts, skills/technique, and resources for improving his climbing safety; he believes that he is capable of reinventing the wheel when it comes to these areas. He has also repeatedly shown a disregard (perhaps distrust is a better word) for people who have higher levels of experience, formal training, and judgement that he currently possesses.

 

An Alpine Club discussion of avalanche terrain analysis, travel, and rescue technique is a great example. Rather an simply realizing that there is danger (real or perceived, implicit or explicit, subjective or objective) when travelling in the mountains in winter, he tried to justify his decision to not take avalanches seriously and to never carry an avalanche beacon based on the "only 30 people die per year in avalanches--so my odds are very small" and that "they weigh 8oz and only have one use" arguements. On the only trip I have participated with him on, he tried to convince me that it was a good idea for him to lead climb WI4- ice after his very first top roped ice climb (on which he pumped out and had to hang on the rope repeatedly). Disaster was eminanent.

 

Needless to say, I respect Jamin for his enthusiasm and drive to go climbing...but I can not bring myself (nor put myself in any situation where it might occur) to climb with him at this time. Simply put, he is too great of a risk. Until he is able and willing to admit his hubris -- take a step back, re-evaluate his "climbing", and take steps to further his own safe development, I would not recommend that anyone go climbing with him.

 

Jamin -- Please take climbing seriously. It can, and often does, kill those who don't respect it.

[Jamin]

I totally understand your concerns Kurt, and I am grateful to have learned a good bit from you guys. I even have a belay device now. I never had anybody else teach me anything before I met the alpine club. Thank you for letting me come with you on that climb. I appreciate it. I would like to climb with you again sometime when I get more experience, and I hope to see you Monday in the climbing gym.