ericb Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 what page of the thread decided if god existed or not? It was at the point where kevbone disappeared. Our prayers were answered, so I knew at that moment there must be a God. Kevbone is conspicuously absent....must have had to deal with a really poopy diaper! Quote
ClimbingPanther Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 (edited) foreknowledge must by definition preclude certain actions, simply by virtue of being foreknowledge. it would be useless to speak of foreknowledge if the outcome was in doubt. if you didn't know what would happen, you wouldn't have foreknowledge. foreknowledge exerts no "controlling force" what-so-ever, but simply reads the map, if you will. in other words, if it wasn't known what would happen, then it wasn't known what would happen! OK, you're right foreknowledge does, in a sense, preclude actions which were not known, but you also admit that foreknowledge itself did not "control" the action. Choice controls actions, foreknowledge just knows the choices. Just because the outcome is known to some being does not necessarily mean that being controlled the outcome. Jim, that wasn't mixing science & religion, it was just illustrating that foreknowledge doesn't exert control. It's the LACK of choice which is the illusion Edited February 1, 2007 by ClimbingPanther Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 Choice controls actions, foreknowledge just knows the choices. Just because the outcome is known to some being does not necessarily mean that being controlled the outcome. I think in this case one would only have the illusion of "choice". To the actor, it would certainly seem as if he/she were making choices, based on free will or what have you. But if from the vantage point of god one could see this all play out, freedom of choice would only be an illusion, since, again from the vantage point of god, every choice was the choice the agent must have made, since god had already seen it (remember, god cannot be surprised). Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 further, the being did not in any willful sense "control" the outcome; the only thing that "controlled" the outcome was the hypothesis that god knows the future in a complete way! Quote
StevenSeagal Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 This is kinda like that movie with Tom Cruise- forget the name- where he's head of that agency with the 3 psychics who foresee crimes, and feed it into a computer- so they can arrest the people before they commit the crime. And then he gets named as someone who is going to commit a murder so they try to arrest him, but he flees. And so he spends the whole movie trying to stop it from happening...and ends up committing the murder exactly as it was foreseen- or I can't remember, maybe he chooses not to at the end? Whatever it was a stinker, but reminds me anyway. Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 dude we killed the thread Then we should be celebrated. Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 This is kinda like that movie with Tom Cruise- forget the name- where he's head of that agency with the 3 psychics who foresee crimes, and feed it into a computer- so they can arrest the people before they commit the crime. And then he gets named as someone who is going to commit a murder so they try to arrest him, but he flees. And so he spends the whole movie trying to stop it from happening...and ends up committing the murder exactly as it was foreseen- or I can't remember, maybe he chooses not to at the end? Whatever it was a stinker, but reminds me anyway. heh, that was a fun movie. Quote
ClimbingPanther Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 foreknowledge exerts no "controlling force" what-so-ever, but simply reads the map the only thing that "controlled" the outcome was the hypothesis that god knows the future in a complete way! Quote
Seahawks Posted February 2, 2007 Posted February 2, 2007 How do you jump from knowing something going to happen to them being decided? god never gets surprised, right? how could he, since he knows everything. he knows everything that has happened, and everything that WILL happen, right? he knows every thought you will have in the future, and every action you will take in the future. if the future wasn't already decided, then how could he know? Well then why would Jesus tell us to pray??? If it already decided pray wouln't matter? Good questions. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted February 2, 2007 Posted February 2, 2007 (edited) I was listening to a Canuck pastor on the radio today talk about a biblical figure (Jacob?) who actually, not figuratively, wrestled Jesus...before he was born. Now THAT would make good reality TV. Edited February 2, 2007 by tvashtarkatena Quote
Seahawks Posted February 2, 2007 Posted February 2, 2007 How do you jump from knowing something going to happen to them being decided? god never gets surprised, right? how could he, since he knows everything. he knows everything that has happened, and everything that WILL happen, right? he knows every thought you will have in the future, and every action you will take in the future. if the future wasn't already decided, then how could he know? Well then why would Jesus tell us to pray??? If it already decided pray wouln't matter? Good questions. Why ask why??? Drink Bud Dry. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted February 2, 2007 Posted February 2, 2007 Almost there. Reference to where it was published please? See? You're learning! Go ahead and discount but point is Evolution is a theory and can not be proved. Neither side can be proved. So stop taking offense at this like its an attack on your religion. Well maybe it is. The existence of Seahawks is a theory, too, but one that is strongly supported by the shit streaks that encrust his keyboard. Quote
Seahawks Posted February 2, 2007 Posted February 2, 2007 Almost there. Reference to where it was published please? See? You're learning! Go ahead and discount but point is Evolution is a theory and can not be proved. Neither side can be proved. So stop taking offense at this like its an attack on your religion. Well maybe it is. The existence of Seahawks is a theory, too, but one that is strongly supported by the shit streaks that encrust his keyboard. At least you see the evidence istead of being stupid Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 2, 2007 Author Posted February 2, 2007 Once again I have started a shit storm. :-) Quote
minx Posted February 2, 2007 Posted February 2, 2007 well you are a shithead and that is not a theory Quote
ericb Posted February 2, 2007 Posted February 2, 2007 Once again I have started a shit storm. :-) And a fine one at that. Quote
AlpineK Posted February 2, 2007 Posted February 2, 2007 Once again I have started a shit storm. :-) Something stinks Quote
mattp Posted February 2, 2007 Posted February 2, 2007 Once again I have started a shit storm. :-) That was your intent, was it not? And look at all the fun we've had. See you again tomorrow? Quote
ericb Posted February 2, 2007 Posted February 2, 2007 I was listening to a Canuck pastor on the radio today talk about a biblical figure (Jacob?) who actually, not figuratively, wrestled Jesus...before he was born. Now THAT would make good reality TV. ummm....Jacob wrestled God, not Jesus (please no trinity joke here), so sounds like another Canuck with his head up his ass. Imagine that. Quote
drater Posted February 2, 2007 Posted February 2, 2007 I didn't read past the first ten posts but thought this picture would help this little discussion along.... Quote
ericb Posted February 2, 2007 Posted February 2, 2007 I didn't read past the first ten posts but thought this picture would help this little discussion along.... Notice the very feminine looking duck on his right.....hmmmmm Quote
drater Posted February 2, 2007 Posted February 2, 2007 omg, it's Mary Mallardane...or some shit. Another theory needing considered... Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 2, 2007 Author Posted February 2, 2007 Once again I have started a shit storm. :-) That was your intent, was it not? And look at all the fun we've had. See you again tomorrow? not really, but it *was* fun. Quote
kevbone Posted February 2, 2007 Posted February 2, 2007 what page of the thread decided if god existed or not? It was at the point where kevbone disappeared. Our prayers were answered, so I knew at that moment there must be a God. Sorry to disapoint you SS. Still here. Quote
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