gapertimmy Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 Folks- I realize there are (literally) hundreds of people using the forum and this site for information regarding this tragic accident, but cluttering up the thread (further) with transcripts and things like that will only make gathering info that much more difficult. 'Normal' forum etiquette is to post a link to a news source and viewers can then decide to click on it or not. For those just tuning in. Please read the entire thread before posting It is very likely that any question you have might have been answered in the prior fifty pages. Use the 'Search' Function Use the site's search function to find additional information about Mt. Hood, routes, pictures etc. We even have a Trip Report database of prior ascents of numerous routes on Mt. Hood Trip Report Link: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/tripreports/ search for Location: HOOD and OREGON as the region. Respect Eachother, and don't get offended by 'spray' This site has been around for over 6 years and there is alot of history, and definatley some interesting personalities. Remember this is an Internet forum so don't take something someone says so personally. Many of the long-time posters have a wealth of knowledge about climbing (as you can see from this thread) and have/will try to answer questions. Moderating As mattp said... all the moderators and the admins on this site are volunteers. We don't moderate much content here, but in instances like 'rescues' we do moderate posts that may be offensive to friends and families of those involved. If this bothers you, remember that nobody is forcing you to be here on the site Where to Post? There are numerous forums on the site here that may suit your question better than posting on this thread. There is a forum dedicated to 'Newbies' for those looking for general climbing information. We also have a forum called 'spray' where you can pretty much post anything you would like to. All that being said, I'm glad this forum can help with information, and my thoughts and prayers are with the families.
Carmen Alexa Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 (edited) not really, but they arn't nescesary. if you can veiw this site, then you can view the live streaming broadcast at the link I posted several times. thanks I know the links - we get all these live streams, videos and news. Thx. a lot. But as I mentioned above - we are part of Brians Family in Germany - and even though my English isn't so bad, I can't comprehend all the explanations in the newsconferences first hearing them. Therefore I appreciate it, but I don't want to make this another never ending discussion. I am glad that this thread get back focused on the important issues around this rescue operation. Please forget it and don't discuss longer - It's ok, it was just a short request. Naturally I respect and understand the rules of this Board as mentioned above from the moderator. Regards Carmen Edited December 18, 2006 by Carmen Alexa
MtnBoy Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 1. The local counties sponsor and train regularly with the volunteer SAR personnel. They often hire and train specialized deputies with SAR experience. Most recreationally orented counties do this and most are Very professional. 2. The PJ's used to be based at PDX with their rescue helo's. They are great, but their full time job takes them over seas alot and they are not always available. I which our senators and congressment could get them re-based in the area. The PJ's train for their full time job by providing rescue services here at home. 3. SAR VOlunteers are professional in that they need a min amount of annual training time, meet physical and technical qualification and are sponsored and insured by the USFS and the local Counties. In other countries, such as in the ALPS there are morse dedicated assesset because there are tens of thousands of people in the mountains and those are nanny states where you expect a chopper ride for a sprained ankle (litterally). 4. Finally each SAR district has people on call and often run patrols during busy times like weekends. The current system is pretty good considering it is mostly done with volunteer labor and a lot of donations. Please remember that and look up you local SAR group and support them Thanks,
Alpinfox Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 One question that is clear though is 'Why is this being run by a Sheriff's dept?' Is that dept equiped or experinced in rescue? Depends on the Sheriff's dept. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. What is the command structure? Does the volunteer MRT run the rescue or is it the sheriff. Again, it depends on the particular sheriff's office and the personality and disposition of the particular deputy in charge of SAR operations. At best, the sheriff's office defers to the SAR team for issues related to technical rescue, search strategy, etc which, in my opinion, usually results in a more efficient and effective operation. At worst, the sheriff's office bungles the whole operation by their failure to understand the logistics of a technical rescue. "We'll just do a grid search of this whole mountainside." Why is there is not a professional or military rescue team in place for these kinds of responses. Because taxpayers don't want to pay for it. It seems that ultimately the Air Force Pararescue team do the job, why not start with them or designate a squadron to be the point team. Why send teams of volunteers organised by a sheriffs dept to do a job that usually requires air support with highly trained medics who are practiced and trained in all terrain rescue. Military rescue teams are not trained in technical climbing and need the assistance of people with that expertise to transport injured climbers to less difficult terrain. Also, many rescues are effected without air support. Is the current command structure the way to go? What happens in other nations? Canada has a fantastic professional mountain rescue group that has its own helicopters and full-time professional rescuers. I think it would be great if we had a team like that in the PNW. Are there other people who question the effectiveness of this system? Yes, it could be better.Can mountain rescue be handled by in a way similar to the way the coastguard service rescues people stranded at sea i.e. by professionals who are paid and insured to take risks and who are (to quote the coast guard motto) - 'always ready'. Park, these are great questions.
BamaPacker Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 I think the live video feed (KOIN) on Sunday afternoon was very telling and no one was then or is now commenting on it. The camera was focused on the summit where there were maybe four or five climbers looking to the NE down toward Eliot Glacier. Some other climbers were probing around the summit and two were hacking our the helo drop/pickup zone. One of those peering to the NE must have gotten roped up and was anchored to the others on the summit and to the summit ground. He (wearing what appeared to me to be a blue shell) walked rather easily down a few hundred feet. At one point he stopped on the (camera) left side of the gulley near a "spur" and it looked like he was using something large and reflective. I interpret this as a shovel and believe he was at the first snow cave. The helo with the camera must have had to leave the scene for refueling or something. It was much later that the live feed returned (approx 3:30pm PST) and the camera was focused on the same guy (blue shell) who was now at a point approx 30-50 ft below and to the right (camera) of the first cave. I interpreted this as the second cave. Does anyone have this video or screen captures from it?
jfmctlaw Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 Oh, geez, that was a great pic!!!! Can't you guys leave the pic up?
park7 Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 Just to clarify, I only intended the word professional in it's literal sense i.e. a pro gets paid whereas an amatuer volunteers for no pay. I know miltary rescue which is why I asked the questions. And no offence indended but PJ's do it better and for the record many spec ops operators are not only trained climbers but they also bring the skills needed to stablise and transport the patient. My point was only that speed is essential, the most desired situation is where the rescuer has climbing and medical skills with aircraft to insert and extract team members. There are many options to design a system like this from insurance based to tax based. Im just looking at this from an efficiency point of view and if you're going to call the military anyway - why not just designate them to do it in the first place. Probably cheaper but surely if you mobilise a helo right off the bat you'll get a higher save rate. Ask any paramedic about the golden hour. Speed is everything and a life saved is a lot less money for the authorities as a fatality. I don't get the nanny state concept - you don't need to be a pussy to need a rescue. A sprained ankle dealt with quickly prevents a drawn out rescue for a guy who in 48 hours will have a sprained ankle and hypothermia. No?
iain Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 He was placing a picket for a directional to cut back on to the n. face, where the first cave was. The second, larger cave was found later in the day from a set of much harder to see tracks discovered only by someone on the ground. park7 - maybe you should ask the pjs what they thought of the people they were working with up there.
joblo7 Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 yeah i saw that too .i think you are right. unfor i did not record
TotalIdiot Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 This isn't an insert and extract, it's recovery. Oh, and great work admins eraseing my posts. No freedom of speech here. No amendments to the Constitution held here.
gslater Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 Iain - Good to see you here. Perhaps you can explain with some precision where these two caves were, in terms that past Hood climbers can relate to. Were they both in the upper stretches of the Cooper Spur route, or more in between Cooper Spur and the left NF gully? How far apart were they? Etc....
gslater Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 No freedom of speech here. No amendments to the Constitution held here. Yup, you're right. Suck it up.
joblo7 Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 they have to keep legal chain of command local/state /mil etc, but the 'head' delegates and uses all assets. its all about speed though your right. the pilot of c130 said on phone that " we could not pick heat signature from them because they were in a cave so i was circling evenly so they could predict my next pass and come out or make 'heat' sign. we could have picked a match or lighter or headlamp.....'
Roy Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 (edited) Gapertimmy, the most sane voice on this site .Scarry as that may be. As this week has progressed I have not seen much coverage other than the nightly news. But from the weather I have seen and the knowldege of the route. I new enough. Prayers to the climbers and families and much admiration for all the people searching! Edited December 18, 2006 by Roy
Steve_B Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 'Why is this being run by a Sheriff's dept?' this was my question... also, about the "Y" sign letting rescuers know 'yes, we're here', when I saw a picture of the 'Y' it certainly looked to me like an anchor that was equalized rather than some 'code' or 'sign'...
mike_m Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 It's being "run" by the Sheriff because in Oregon (and Washington for that matter) SAR is the legal responsibility of the county Sheriff.
iain Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 gslater- The first cave was to skier's left of the spur proper, heading towards the left gully. The second cave, were the climber was found, was about the same elevation but more east, on the spur, by a large rock. It was big enough for several people. The tracks leading to this cave meander over to the cliffs of n-c headwall/spider, then a hard traverse back over to cooper spur again. There do not appear to be any further tracks below these locations.
Alpinfox Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 ...PJ's do it better and for the record many spec ops operators are not only trained climbers but they also bring the skills needed to stablise and transport the patient. ... In the two SAR organizations that I have been involved with, all SAR members are required to have basic first aid/CPR (basically worthless), but many have first responder, EMT, or paramedic training, and there are even a few trauma nurses and physicians in SAR. Are the military PJs trained in crevasse rescue, high angle rescue, snow/ice anchors, etc? Can they climb technical snow/ice/rock terrain? I don't know much about them. I would guess that there are very very few military para-rescuers with the skill set that the PMR and CragRat teams have. Speed is certainly essential, and more air support in search&rescue operations would be great.
Steve_B Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 thank you my thoughts and prayers go out to the families as well...
gslater Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 gslater- The first cave was to skier's left of the spur proper, heading towards the left gully. The second cave, were the climber was found, was about the same elevation but more east, on the spur, by a large rock. It was big enough for several people. The tracks leading to this cave meander over to the cliffs of n-c headwall/spider, then a hard traverse back over to cooper spur again. There do not appear to be any further tracks below these locations. Thanks. That makes more sense now. I never heard any real statement about where the 2nd cave was. Heard the sheriff mention setting up a 5:1 system for the recovery, and couldn't figure out why that was necessary if the 2nd cave was on the south side close to the helo zone. Just goes to show what happens when I assume too much...
Lambone Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 seemed odd they'd need a 5:1... but it's not really important
randomguy Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 One thought regarding SAR response is that most SAR incidents are for lost hikers or just general outdoor people, and these are usually handled by volunteer SAR without needing military support. SAR responses for climbers take a lot more support and rely on the military, but it would be a very expensive system to involve the military in every search and it would be even more expensive to maintain two entirely different search protocols/organisations depending on whether a search was lowlands or mountains. The current system seems to work fairly well, and in this incident they seem to be doing everything possible.
Dr_Flush_Amazing Posted December 18, 2006 Posted December 18, 2006 also, about the "Y" sign letting rescuers know 'yes, we're here', when I saw a picture of the 'Y' it certainly looked to me like an anchor that was equalized rather than some 'code' or 'sign'... Wow. You should get on the phone and let the SAR team know that.
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