Bolt Nazis

[bwrts]

I can think of a couple rusty pieces o' sh** at a certain belay on Orbit

 

Just make sure the local hardmen don't trundle your ass.

you don't even need said rusty pieces of sh!t. there is natural pro right above and below and all around the belay. just open your eyes and let the wonderous rockwall show you the way to pure free climbing!!!

have a great day!

[selkirk]

There's 1 reasonable nut placement (assuming you haven't used that size on the previous pitch) A reasonable horn (so long as you don't pull up), and a marginal flaring blue TCU at that stance and of course two shitty bolts:p So there is gear, it's just less than inspiring for hanging belay, and god forbid 2 parties should stack up there (Like we did the first time I climbed Orbit). There's definitely only room for 1 belay at that stance right now.

 

Granted it's an intermediate stance, and not critical if you've climbed the route before and know the "Prefered Cascade Hardmen" certifed belay stations, but going up blind it's an easy place to end a pitch.

 

REPLACING 2 existing shitty bolts would have sped us up by at least an hour as it would have been possible to build a second belay that's reasonable so I could have brought up my 2nd. Instead of waiting for the folks in front of us to completely clear the belay.

 

I still think it would be worth updating those two bolts. It's not like were talking about retrobolting the whole damn thing, and it's not like were talking about a remote crag, it's the Snow Creek Wall for cryin out load, it's damn near a roadside crag

[mattp]

It has been a couple of years since I've done the route, but I have done the climb twice and I don't believe we belayed at that station either time.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that didn't look like a great belay location. Isn't the fact that the bolts are there the only real reason to belay at that point? Does the topo showing bolts, or the visibility of the station from below cause parties to skip the good stance at the large ledge that is maybe a half pitch below?

 

On balance, I tend to agree with those who say that they should be good ones if there are bolts there at all, but I'm also not sure it might be just as well to simply remove them. If you did find yourself running out of rope and didn't have the gear needed to set a belay in the small cracks at that particular location, you could set a hanging belay at some other spot nearby where there are cracks of some other dimension.

 

I know, some say we should keep them for history's sake, but I am not real hot on this idea.

[bwrts]

The bolts are there cuz the short rope beckey was aiding on stopped there. Going up blind and stopping to belay at a Mooosh!t stance (when if one looks up and realizes they have the rope stretch to get up to a better stance) further proooves the idiocy in leaving the bolts at all. Fuk it just yank the bolts and put in a espresso stand. Since that is what really is needed up there....

 

On second thought: When the bolts have been there for as long as they have been, why suddenly are they too old for any further use, knowing the bolts have sufficient gear to back them up...? I think FB should way in on this argument.... considering he put the damn bolts in and last time I checked still running around this globe we call home (@84).

Edited October 18, 2006 by bwrts

[archenemy]

T the idiocy in leaving the bolts at all. Fuk it just yank the bolts and put in a espresso stand. Since that is what really is needed up there....

True!

[mattp]

If there was hot coffee available, I'd buy a cup!

[bwrts]

case in point.

[olyclimber]

but only if its shade grown organic coffee.

[pope]

Here's a relevant story. Back in the day on my first trip up the mighty Orbit climb, back when ANY 5.8 climb was an adventure, I climbed that pitch and found it REALLY interesting, with entertaining climbing and gear that was just barely adequate for a novice 5.8 climber. I climbed it with a 45m rope (in vogue back then and destined to cycle back into popularity). Anyway, I arrived at those manky 1/4" bolts, with no hangers or nuts, and looped a couple of wired pieces over them. I could tell that additional gear was available at the belay but nothing remaining on my rack happened to fit. And so, I yelled to my partner, "You've got the best damn belay in the state, but don't fall!" He couldn't hear me, of course, and pitched off in that initial cruxy dihedral. As you can imagine, that scared the snot out of me, especially since other than those two looped 1/4" studs for the belay, the only other gear nearby was a dubious cam 20' below. Anyway, with rope drag diminishing the impact, and knowing I could absorb much of the load with my standing-belay stance (according to Freedom of the Hills), we avoided disaster.

 

The next time I climbed the route, with a 50m rope and a modern rack, I belayed 15' above using extremely secure 2-1/2" cam placements in a horizontal crack.

 

I don't have a reputation for advocating bolts, but in this case, I think it may be prudent to replace the bolts with 1/2" equipment. Today's climbers can pass this stance with ease (with 50m and 60m ropes), and the stance I mentioned above offers a great anchor provided the leader has saved enough gear (especially 2" to 3" cams) after that long pitch. But what if the leader arrives without the necessary gear? I think belaying off of whatever is left on the rack which kind of sort of fits is BS. A belay anchor needs to be bombproof. Anything less is an invitation for a tragedy.

 

Yes, occasionally bolts are appropriate and since there is already a stance at about 50m that has two bolts (or studs), I don't see the harm in replacing them with modern gear.

[billcoe]

 

I don't have a reputation for advocating bolts, but in this case, I think it may be prudent to replace the bolts with 1/2" equipment.

 

Hey, what did you do to- or with Pope?

 

 

pod people have replaced Pope.

 

 

BTW renamed the thread.

[chucK]

Crimpers and slopers and long waits in iso;

The stretch in my lycra that helps me to dyno;

The beta I'll need for the crux underclings.....these are a few of my favorite things.

 

A bolt by my feet and my knee and my shoulder;

Some obnoxious music to play when I boulder;

Apparel that matches my colorful slings....these are a few of my favorite things!

 

 

ETA: I must give credit here. I did not write this masterpiece. It was originally posted by Pope, back in the day, when he was actually against unnecessary bolts.

Edited October 19, 2006 by chucK

[billcoe]

Thats funny Chuck!

[selkirk]

Here's a relevant story. Back in the day on my first trip up the mighty Orbit climb, back when ANY 5.8 climb was an adventure, I climbed that pitch and found it REALLY interesting, with entertaining climbing and gear that was just barely adequate for a novice 5.8 climber. I climbed it with a 45m rope (in vogue back then and destined to cycle back into popularity). Anyway, I arrived at those manky 1/4" bolts, with no hangers or nuts, and looped a couple of wired pieces over them. I could tell that additional gear was available at the belay but nothing remaining on my rack happened to fit. And so, I yelled to my partner, "You've got the best damn belay in the state, but don't fall!" He couldn't hear me, of course, and pitched off in that initial cruxy dihedral. As you can imagine, that scared the snot out of me, especially since other than those two looped 1/4" studs for the belay, the only other gear nearby was a dubious cam 20' below. Anyway, with rope drag diminishing the impact, and knowing I could absorb much of the load with my standing-belay stance (according to Freedom of the Hills), we avoided disaster.

 

The next time I climbed the route, with a 50m rope and a modern rack, I belayed 15' above using extremely secure 2-1/2" cam placements in a horizontal crack.

 

I don't have a reputation for advocating bolts, but in this case, I think it may be prudent to replace the bolts with 1/2" equipment. Today's climbers can pass this stance with ease (with 50m and 60m ropes), and the stance I mentioned above offers a great anchor provided the leader has saved enough gear (especially 2" to 3" cams) after that long pitch. But what if the leader arrives without the necessary gear? I think belaying off of whatever is left on the rack which kind of sort of fits is BS. A belay anchor needs to be bombproof. Anything less is an invitation for a tragedy.

 

Yes, occasionally bolts are appropriate and since there is already a stance at about 50m that has two bolts (or studs), I don't see the harm in replacing them with modern gear.

 

Holy Shit! The Pope says bolt it! It's official, I win the argument, hands down, no contest, thank you very much, and I'll be here all week

 

 

Thank you Pope, that's been my whole stance. Every on here says, ground up onsight, on gear, is the purest way to climb, and that Beta minimizes the experience and lessens it. Those bolts may not be necessary to someone who ALREADY KNOWS THE ROUTE, but for someone without a huge amount of Beta or someone who has already done the route, it's entirely reasonable to end up needing to belay from that stance (it's at about 50m, from the belay at the base of the two dihedrals below the 5.7 face), and those bolts are shitty. In addition the size of gear required for there or the dihedral above it is awfully specific, and if you don't have it your screwed.

 

It's fine for me (and all of you) to climb it now and not use those bolts because we've climbed it before and know all the options! For someone without MattP and bwrts vast experience with the options on Orbit, whose on their first trip up it's very different story. You like the history, then leave the old ones in but it deserves to knew pieces there.

[catbirdseat]

"it deserves to knew pieces there" OMG!

 

If you pull those bolts you solve the problem also. People see bolts and they have this overwhelming urge to stop their upward progress to belay right there when a much better belay stance awaits only 15 m above and they still have enough rope to get there.

Edited October 19, 2006 by catbirdseat

[chucK]

Three bolts would be better, so if parties were stacking up, more people could belay there. If there were three (or four) then that could've saved Selkirk an hour.

[bwrts]

Hell, I will bolt the bitch this november in the rain with a goat as a belay bitch....kidding.

How about we leave the damn bolts alone, consult Fred, find out he really doesn't care and then add two new shiny bolts next to the mank (for prosterity). That way all parties are happy. Except maybe pope, as we would be adding holes to the stuart batholith...OMG.

 

cheers.

[Choada_Boy]

Or...belay a bit higher in cracks below the 5.9 finger crack, chop the manky bolt belay, and go above and around the corner and belay. Link-a-dinka-DEEE!!!

[selkirk]

Or...belay a bit higher in cracks below the 5.9 finger crack, chop the manky bolt belay, and go above and around the corner and belay. Link-a-dinka-DEEE!!!

 

hmmmm, good idea for someone WHO'S ALREADY CLIMBED THE ROUTE. Not so useful for someone on their first trip up Orbit and doesn't know that you absolutely can't belay from the bush just above the 5.9 finger cracks or you'll be screwed.

[catbirdseat]

Come on, Selkirk. The beta for this route is quite good for those who seek it. I had no trouble following the route and finding the good belay spots. My sources of beta were 1) VKramar, 2) Dave Burdick, 3) a couple TR's from this site. I didn't even bother taking a topo on the route.

[archenemy]

I didn't even bother taking a topo on the route.

[selkirk]

The next pitch starts with a calf-burning slab (c. 5.8). A couple of micro-cams and a nice bolt. Small roofs on the left then force you out to the right onto and past the arete. The move above is kind of tricky with 1 blue Alien, 1 green Alien, and 1 bolt (20 feet below). There is a nice 3-4" in slanting crack just above that move. As I'm hanging there in a semi-lieback position reaching for my #4 Camalot to slam into the crack and keep moving, the trigger gets stuck! "Sh..!!!". I Switch my hands and try to fiddle single handedly with the trigger wires. No go. My arms are wasting away quickly - just before I come off, I lower myself desperately hoping my foot finds something. Thankfully it does. I untangle the trigger wires and try it again. Works well. I keep climbing up the face now. The going is fairly straight forward (5.7-5.8) - two moves followed by a rest stance, repeat. Pro is OK - some small cams supplemented by some ancient fixed stuff. I clip a piton and move up 8 feet towards what looks like a belay stance. It's a somewhat tricky mantle move onto a sloping narrow (6inch) "ledge". I look for gear opportunity and find a micronut placement on the right side of the ledge. Once on the "ledge", I find two ancient bolts. I supplement those with a micro-cam. The "ledge" is actually a 25 degree ramp about 3 feet long - barely enough space for two. I bring Shirley up and we re-rack. It’s drizzling a little. I'm hesitant to weigh this crappy anchor but we have no choice given the smallness of the "ledge".

 

Hmm.. Where to go from here? Out with the description... Ok, head right up the slab. With a tricky move around the roof I gained the slab. Fun and well protected face climbing lead to a double bolt belay station. I didn't realize it at the time, but the ziplock with the description had somehow freed its self from my pocket and floated down through space right onto Chris's belay!

[\quote]

 

The first dihedral pitch involved fun stemming and a couple steep bulges, ending at a crappy hanging belay on two 1/4" bolts. Eric complained about his foot hurting and I looked down to see that I was standing on it (oops!).

[\quote]

 

Better hope your read the right trip reports then, and then the party in front of you has as well.

[chucK]

How are you screwed if you belay from the bush just above the 5.9 finger crack?

 

It's a bit uncomfortable but that's been my belay of choice for the last couple of times I've climbed Orbit. I think it's worked out quite well.

[catbirdseat]

You could have stopped there. I thought about it, but then, "shit, that would be just a lousy chicken-shit half-pitch, I wanna stretch the rope out".

[korrigan]

This route shouldn't be that hard to follow. Set up belays where you think is appropriate. I didn't see the sense in the two bolt hanger in the dihedral nor in the two ancient bolts about 50 meters higher.

 

This was my beta and it worked fine with a 60m rope. Without one of those you might have to (gasp) think for yourself. You sure as hell don't need to carry a topo up the thing. Simple logic here. If you are climbing on dirt you're off route go back to the clean stuff and stay on it. The damn thing goes basically straight up anyway??

 

So here's the beta I had:

 

Belay at top of chimney on first pitch. Next pitch goes all the way to the bush above the 5.9 finger section. The pitch after that goes all the way to the big ledge towards the top of the difficulties. Both those pitches are about 60m. Save some mid sized cams for the belay at the big ledge. After that you should be able to figure it out for yourself but if not just go all the way to the humungous ledge below where it get's really easy.

 

The bolt's in the Dihedral are good and you could belay there but why when there's a comfy stance in the bush just below. You can also belay up around the corner as has been described but why when you can stretch the rope up the face to to the ledge above. I certainly don't think the bolts should be chopped because I thought the pro going up the dehedral was marginal and the bolt was a welcome thing.

 

I wouldn't have wanted to be the first person to try going from the bush up through the dihedral all the way to the ledge above but knowing ahead of time that it's possible helps just a wee bit.

 

Without foreknowledge the sensible way seems it would be this:

 

Go up the chimney and belay part way out the '5.2??' ramp on the slings. Go up the ramp do the hard section and belay at the bush. Go right into the dihedral pass the bolt belay up around the corner and belay at the tiny stance as described. Then go up to the big ledge. From the big ledge go up the crack out right to the knobs and up to the humoungous ledge a the top. From there I don't really know how one is supposed to go I just go up trying to stay on clean stuff as much as possible.

[Choada_Boy]

I didn't even bother taking a topo on the route.

 

There's a topo?