Busy downtown Seattle Oct 5

[mattp]

Correct you are that I overlooked his quoted bit, but I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

[Fairweather]

Too bad you don't extend that courtesy universally. But that would spoil all the fun, wouldn't it?

[mattp]

Too bad you don't extend that courtesy universally.

 

Ah, but I do.

 

Sleep well, my friend. The whole Bush team is looking our for your wellfare and you needn't worry about a thing.

[underworld]

i thought they threw away the key after plucking folks off the street? why'd they release this guy?

 

so the cia admitted to the mistaken identity of this dude... they haven't admitted to torture. remember your 'inocent till proven guilty' mantra earlier. that applies to people YOU don't like too.

 

You're right. Mr. El Masri probably just went on a gambling binge for four months, then beat himself up repeatedly and dropped himself off on a mountain road at night in Albania to cover the whole thing up from his overbearing wife.

 

Are morons like you born, or do you have to work at it?

 

well...he was in prison. i guess there is no chance that he was beaten up by others there and made it up that the US guys did it. nooooooo...we don't give the benefit of the doubt to the U.S. of course not. again, neither one of us were there - both speculating. but i'm the idiot. that's cool.

 

he was the leader of a radical group in lebanon - maybe he's got some alterior motives?

 

but, i'm speculating... so lets again talk facts. he was released when the U.S. realized they messed up. so that is two facts agains your arguments. 1)the U.S. throws away the key on these people 2)the U.S. doesn't admit its mistakes.

 

so your newest point is it's own counterpoint

[tvashtarkatena]

so that is two facts agains your arguments. 1)the U.S. throws away the key on these people 2)the U.S. doesn't admit its mistakes.

 

Man, you need to get back on your Ritalin. Your ADD is preventing you from staying on the thread again.

 

OK, let me spoon feed it to you again. My argument has always been for A) Due process and B) against torture. Pretty simple. The fact that a few detainees were released after being abducted and tortured as irrelevant to the these arguments.

 

Second, the US has not admitted to making any mistakes regarding Mr. El Masri (or any of the other mistaken torture victims, for that matter). It has not even admitted to abducting him. That is why he has filed suit: to obtain that admission and an apology.

 

And finally, if you'll actually read Mr. El Masri's account, you'll see that Americans were complicit and present every step of the way from his abduction onward. The fact that an Afghan or other foreign national actually inserts the broomhandle up a detainees anus (as happened in the case of Mr. El Masri), does not excuse the American operatives and policy makers who arranged for and ordered such treatment in the first place. Extraordinary Rendition is an American policy.

[tvashtarkatena]

For example, Fairweather references the "rove threads," as some kind of evidence of folks passing unfair judgment on cc.com in the Plame Leak case

 

Uh, sorry, I hit the ignore button on Fairweather when he started ranting about commie puppetmasters...after pulling the 9v battery from my kookiness alarm. He's just here to recreationally liberal bash...without Ann Coulter's cleavage. Boring. I suspect that what he really needs is a hug.

 

At least Underworld makes an attempt to defend the administration's actions by inserting some doubt into our assertions of impropriety. That, and he can sort of remember what we're talking about.

 

What strikes me here is that all of this speculation would be removed if we would just return to good, old fashioned, effective law enforcement based on constitutional due process. Its a much admired and much copied system that works. Then professionals would be figuring all this stuff out for us, and we'd be happy in our beds knowing that our constitution was not being used by our-less-than- trustworthy leadership to line the cages at Quantanamo. So far, no one on this thread has convincingly stated why that would not be a good idea.

[Fairweather]

Next time you try the "who's funding that study?" argument, remember back to what you just said. Did you even read the Wikipedia link? You come across as a grumpy, old, and not-too-bright knee-jerk who's only connection to perceived intellect is his politic. You, sir, are exactly that which you are so fond of calling others here - a moron. Go crawl back into your hole - if your pot belly will allow.

[dinomyte]

I don't think we should spend too much time insulting each other. I'm of the mind that there are just as many pretty intelligent people who says stupid shit as there are stupid people who say stupid shit.

 

Folks a lot more intelligent than the majority on this site have been arguing it for a lot longer than we have.

 

And, you have to remember that so much of what we say is opinion anyway.

 

One person says that he hates this administration because they are promoting torture and denying due process. Another says "no, they're not." I say they're not as bad as the naysayers think, and not as good as the staunch supporters think, and I don't really give a shit what they do with terrorists (of course I recognize that they could just call anyone a terrorist....that's the rub).

 

I applaud all who laud the Geneva Convention and the Constitution and all of the documents and values that our country has lived by and that our administration is now (apparently) thumbing its nose at.

 

But, it's probably about achieving some kind of balance. I'm no longer sure that our existing lawa are appropriate for dealing with our current situation. If we granted all the folks we've "detained" due process, we would have probably released 90% of them and, who knows, maybe 50% of those released are actually terrorists and would have gone "human bomb" on us. Is that a good enough reason to lock them all away? I don't know. But, it's tough not to be hypocritical. It's like the folks who wanted to ban logging to save the spotted owl, but sure loved wiping their asses with Charmin.

 

In the end, I'm sure that we'll all do what we always do....let the administration do what they do, and bitch about it when we don't like it.

 

I actually am happy that Jim (in the beginning of this thread) was doing something about it. I'm also doing something to voice my opinion - Nothing. Cause I'm fine with where we're at. Always room for improvement, but could always be worse!

[tvashtarkatena]

I'm also doing something to voice my opinion - Nothing.

 

Excellent. That'll make the job of those of us who are doing something this upcoming election that much easier.

[dinomyte]

lol....Nothing means I'm not protesting, my good man!

 

I vote.

[dinomyte]

As I was writing a quick IM, I realized that I could sum up my feelings about all this relatively quickly (which is a good thing for all who have made their way through the 100s of posts in this thread).

 

I have absolutely no problem with folks who are opposed to the current administration. If you truly believe that we should not go to war over oil, and we should do more about global warming, then that is great.

 

But by God or Allah, live what you believe! If you drive an SUV, drink Starbuck's lattes, or wipe your ass with Charmin, I don't wanna hear any bitching!

 

I happen to drive an SUV, drink lattes and I certainly wipe my ass. I also have a decent job, am able to support my family, and I even have a few bucks left over to gas up my rig, head to hills and get in a little climbing now and again. But you won't catch me bitching too much.

 

We all choose the way we live, and I'm guessing that not too many folks on the old CC board are willing to go the distance to support their causes. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing they're in it till it hits the pocket book or becomes an inconvenience.

[JayB]

I am with you there Dinomyte.

 

However, If I had to pick a couple of guys from the board who seem to at least walk the walk in such a way that their lifestyles and politics/rhetoric are in synch, it'd be Jim and Dave Shuldt. There are some things that we'll never agree on, and could probably argue about until the end of time, but those guys get some points for commuting by bike year round, and putting some money/time where their mouth is by investing time and money into causes that they support.

[dinomyte]

and if that's the case i'll be the first to give 'em props (well, the 2nd...heh heh)

[archenemy]

You both are saying the same thing.

But what I like about dinomyte's way of putting it is that he doesn't take the air of superiority tact. What pissed me off about Jim's post way back was just that--the psudo-holiness of the whole statement. I am glad Jim is active in politics, but to accuse others of apathy just because they don't do the same is ridiculous.

I don't drive an SUV and I don't commute by bike. I don't get involved in politics that are connected with the current war(s). I am glad people like Jim are. I have chosen to put my time, energy, and money into other efforts. As I've mentioned on this site in the past, I spend a fair amount of effort working with the homeless--specificially active drug users who are homeless. I consider this group voiceless in our society, so I work with an organization that helps give them voice (as well as counseling, clean needles, hygiene kits, etc). I do so with a clean conscience knowing that folks like Jim are doing work on other issues that affect us all. To be judged by him, however, is a huge turnoff. He probably doesn't realize that in his passion for his cause he could be turning prospective allies away. That's a waste. I don't understand what good could possibly come out of trying to shame other people into seeing things from your point of view. It just doesn't work.

[Dechristo]

I don't understand what good could possibly come out of trying to shame other people into seeing things from your point of view. It just doesn't work.

 

It works if your underlying need is to believe you're superior to others.

[archenemy]

Ah, I feel better already.

[Dechristo]

ass swell you should.

 

sorry, wrong thread.

[archenemy]

explosive humor

[Dechristo]

that should be plural

[tvashtarkatena]

Uh, just to be clear, I accused others of apathy, not Jim. Here's why: Jim made a simple announcement of a planned protest regarding US sponsored torture and suspension of due process: a pretty important issue. The announcement looked like it was mostly cut and pasted. Some folks apparently read the language as over the top, and immediately attacked him for it from what I thought was the comfort of their armchairs.

 

I called bullshit on that. Whether or not you think protest is an effective way to change things, its a damn important constitutional right that has played a major role in some pretty positive change in this country. Pissing all over the right to protest is, to me, like pissing all over the American flag, and that, well, pissed me off.

 

It's interesting that when the Right gets pissed, they're called 'tough', but when the Left gets pissed, they're called 'self righteous'. Well, I consider myself a (true) conservative, so I'm not sure where I stand in the American political spectrum anymore...probably somewhere out beyond the orbit of Pluto or Sedna or whatever that new non-planet is called.

 

I do have a problem with apathy, but I don't have one bit of a problem with folks choosing to make different contributions than I do. I also have a problem with criticizing somebody just because their trying to make a difference. That's not self righteous, that's just trying to get involved. Finally, I have a problem with reading intent or content in someone's message that just isn't there. If you're going to respond to somebody, emotionally, factually, or otherwise, read what they actually wrote. Pidgeonholing somebody with the Leftie/Rightie schtick is like trying to carve The David with a chainsaw.

[Mr_Phil]

I do have a problem with apathy, but I don't have one bit of a problem with folks choosing to make different contributions than I do.

 

Pidgeonholing somebody with the Leftie/Rightie schtick is like trying to carve The David with a chainsaw.

 

CONTRADICTION ALERT!

 

Different tools for different fools.

[tvashtarkatena]

I do have a problem with apathy, but I don't have one bit of a problem with folks choosing to make different contributions than I do.

 

Pidgeonholing somebody with the Leftie/Rightie schtick is like trying to carve The David with a chainsaw.

 

CONTRADICTION ALERT!

 

Different tools for different fools.

 

Oh, yeah?

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/60919971@N00/267212944/

[Dechristo]

I called bullshit on that.

 

and others called "bullshit" on you; each has received according to their need.

[Stonehead]

I called bullshit on that.

 

and others called "bullshit" on you; each has received according to their need.

 

You,you,you, marxist commie!

[Dechristo]

give me as you're able