The strategy is?

[lI1|1!]

senseless

[chucK]

I just wanted to chime in here about what a great discussion we had here. Lots of insightful, well-thought-out comments really got me thinking about the issues here. Thanks guys...

 

Except for cj001f of course. What a wanker, someone should ban that guy...

 

We should have a lot more these exciting political discussions since the climbing season has basically played out

[cj001f]

Except for cj001f of course. What a wanker, someone should ban that guy...

Someone should, too bad there are only

[Jim]

So what should Israel's strategy be? Sit on their hands and watch the pretty rockets fly in from over the border? They're in an untenable position, with a terrorist organization using a neighbouring country as a base from which to terrorize Israeli citizens. What would any other country do?

 

The crux, isn't it? Well for one I think they (and the US) need a more comprehensive strategy than bomb the crap out of them. Strangling the Palestian state has not worked so let try this: Stop making a land grab with the wall building, get rid of the strategy of cutting up Palestine into cookie cutter pieces with no hope of a functioning state, stop ripping up water projects and other infrastructure put in for the Palestinans by NGOs, foster a moderate government in Lebanon and Palestine through negoiation and less strong arm tactics. Get the land swap deal done already and stop dragging your feet. Stop demolishing houses for a buffer zone around the wall, discard the idea of collective punishment. That's a start at the root problems. If the US pulled the plug on the $4 Billion plus we give to Isarel each year I think we would see negoiations ramp up real quick.

 

The US should have been engaged in the Israel/Arab situation long ago, not just at the crisis stage. But guess where our energies are being spent. You can't just threaten or ignore the players, particularly Syria and Iran, and then expect they're going to listen in the crisis situation. And they've seen the cards we played in Iraq and recognize the weakness and the opportunity. So again, a more sophisticated approach to the world stage than Rummy and Bushie can offer is needed.

[JayB]

There's a pretty good article in The Economist this week that looks at the role that the Suez crisis had in the evolution of the Middle East into the current mega-cluster. I don't think that the crisis itself was as significant as the article suggests, but it's an interesting piece nonetheless.

 

I think that the best idea I heard of for dealing with the spiraling deathcluster over there came from...Jon Stewart. Declare the boundaries between Israel and Palestine and enforce them with a multinational force capable of holding the line, use our significant leverage with Israel to get acquiescence on their part, and declare Jerusalem an international city that's not owned or controlled by the Israelis or the Palestinians. Toss in a peacekeeping force with real teeth in Southern Lebanon and build up the Lebanese state so that it can actually control what happens within its borders, and call it good.

 

This situation seems like an ideal time for all of the Euros to demonstrate their military capabilities and restore their standing and influence in the region. The French Army in particular seems like it would make a good choice for enforcing the cease fire in Lebanon.

[JayB]

"The crux, isn't it? Well for one I think they (and the US) need a more comprehensive strategy than bomb the crap out of them. Strangling the Palestian state has not worked so let try this: Stop making a land grab with the wall building, get rid of the strategy of cutting up Palestine into cookie cutter pieces with no hope of a functioning state, stop ripping up water projects and other infrastructure put in for the Palestinans by NGOs, foster a moderate government in Lebanon and Palestine through negoiation and less strong arm tactics. Get the land swap deal done already and stop dragging your feet. Stop demolishing houses for a buffer zone around the wall, discard the idea of collective punishment. That's a start at the root problems. If the US pulled the plug on the $4 Billion plus we give to Isarel each year I think we would see negoiations ramp up real quick."

 

These are all good ideas that would definitely help things out quite a bit, but I think that the only way that Israel would go along is if someone they trusted were tasked with insuring that all of these things - like open borders and free commerce - would not result in a weaponry-import free for all. It'd be immensely helpful if some Arab country would step up and take this job, but I don't know of any that could muster the domestic support that they'd need to do so. Maybe if they sold it as protecting the Palestinians instead of putting the corrupt death-cult in check, they could pull it off.

[Jim]

True. Leadership is lacking all around and the silence of some Arab states regarding violent tactics is unfortunate.

[willstrickland]

Interesting. Jerusalem as some sort of dual-religion semi-state akin to the Vatican. Works for me. But I don't see how it could ever realistically be implemented.

 

It's been a while, but I recall from reading Clinton's autobiography that freshwater supply issues were a major lynchpin in the peace process negotiations concerning boundaries and land.

[SmallShoes]

What does Israel possibly have to gain by deliberately targeting civilians? I think they just have so-so intelligence and an itchy trigger finger. It's too easy to provoke them into shelling/bombing/bulldozing something and Hezbollah has taken advantage of it.

 

Interesting idea. I don't mean to make the Israeli's out to be as evil as but the evidence and history made me question their explanation. Maybe it's not that they're intentionally targeting civilians but that they just don't care enough to really avoid civilians either.

 

And if that was their goal, who limit themselves to an artillery shell or two?

One thought that I'll just throw out is political pressure. By looking like they "try" to avoid targeting civilians they can play the collateral damage line. If they were outright blatant about it the other countries would pressure the US to stop backing Israel.

But it's just food for thought. At any rate I'm just glad I'm not over in the middle of this ish-storm.

 

I just wanted to chime in here about what a great discussion we had here. Lots of insightful, well-thought-out comments really got me thinking about the issues here. Thanks guys...

 

I'll second that. Good points all around - definitely has made look at the situation from a few different perspectives.

[olyclimber]

Fighting Intensifies as Cease-Fire Nears

"Fighting in Lebanon increases sharply as both Israel and Hezbollah seek to inflict maximum damage before cease-fire. "

 

watch out! peace is coming, and it isn't going to be pretty!

[Fairweather]

Murray, I agree, you go in and do it yourself. But the tactics Israel has chosen are absurd. They would need to get in there with a shitload of ground forces, and root out the rockets and assholes launching them. But Israel in their limited attempts at ground incursions are seeing much stronger resistance than they anticipated. So, unwilling to pay up in blood to achieve their objective via a door to door type approach, they take the rabid dog approach...make the fuckers think you're crazy and will punish everyone and just destroy everything. It's a no-win situation for Israel, IMO. They've already lost.

 

What you do not do is hit well known, long established UN structures. You do not indiscriminately bomb highways and bridges, then tell the entire south of Lebanon to evacuate (on what road? over what bridges?). You don't then target the cars that are evacuating on your orders, and you certainly don't hit Red Cross ambulances with your helos. Tell me this was a mistake:

 

 

Yeah. Center punched the fucking cross on top and put about 100 20mm rounds through the roof. Whoops.

 

 

Are you certain we're looking at reality here?

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5254838.stm

[willstrickland]

How can you even look in the mirror Fairweather? Let's look at the "doctored" vs "undoctored" photos:

 

undoctored

 

doctored

 

Is there a big difference? Looks to me like it was cropped and contrast was bumped up. Did they really not bomb the shit out of Beriut? Is there a contextual difference here? Maybe you should call the Red Cross and ask them if they are lying about the DEATH of their workers and patients from those ambulance shots I linked that you choose to question. Did you get the blast fax from the wingnut noise machine?

 

So now the Red Cross is complicit? A terrorist supporter like all those traitorous libruls? I hope you never have a car wreck or othewise need blood, shit that crazy islamofascist Red Cross will probably poison your blood if you don't bow to allah!

 

Do you blindly lick Rush Limbaugh's nuts every day, or do you occasionally gather info from both sides, examine it, and reach a reasonable objective opinion? Look at the two photos. Seriously, is there any contextual difference? Yet you stoop to question the photo I link, which the Red Cross has confirmed...oh "RED" cross eh? Must be fuckin' commies.

 

It's really hard to believe I used to vote with you crazy fuckers. Seriously, I am embarassed that I EVER voted for any member of the Republican party. Ya'll are nuttier than squirell shit. You have bought into the oldest prole maniputation scheme known to man...rank nationalism, you're for us or against us. Black or white. Well guess what sparky, the world ain't a light switch.

 

I hope the rapture occurs soon so you fuckers will fly into the sky and leave sane people alone.

[Fairweather]

Calm down, bitch.

[Fairweather]

Let's see here; you post a picture of a decimated Red Cross vehicle and neglect to post any context or story. How in the hell do you conclude that I hold The Red Cross complicit?? Was the vehicle being used to transport weapons/fighters? If Hezbolla is willing to place missile launchers on apartment buildings and set up HQ in a hospital then they share the blame for images like the one you so mindlessly posted. I think you're the one drinkin' the Koolaid. Obviously, a good climber does not a thinker make.

[olyclimber]

I think with my gut, the world is my light switch beeyotch!

[cj001f]

I think with my gut, the world is my light switch beeyotch!

But oly, you only turn me on, never off!

[billcoe]

On 8/2/2006 at 1:30 PM, Jim said:

"While Israel certainly has the right to defend itself and is surrounded by a bunch of militant wackos, I don't see how this translates into the right to kill massive amounts of civilians (near 600 now vs the 18 in Israel)and employing a strategy of collective punishment. Their reaction is way overboard, and we're backing it.

The strategy of slowly strangling the Palestinians wasn't working and that's how they ended up with Hammas in power. Now they've pounded the Palestinians and Lebanon, killed over 600 civilians, wounded over 2,000 civilians, caused over $2 billion in damages to homes, roads, power plants, etc., and made life miserable for a lot of folks not involved in the conflict.

The US strategy has always been to have Israel as our cop on the beat in the middle east. It's unfortunate that a people so stricken with a history of persecution choose to follow a ruthless policy towards civilians.

...updated due to near identical current events. Sub Gaza Strip for Lebanon

[KaskadskyjKozak]

plus ça change, plus c'est la même...

[olyclimber]

war is hell

[KaskadskyjKozak]

"Kill 'em all; let God sort them out"