Rule that does not make sense in MRNP!

[Stefan]

Mike Gauthier I have a problem with a rule in MRNP!

 

Dogs are not allowed, but horses are allowed on trails. That seems bassackwards to me! Horses leave A LOT of dung--more than dogs. And horses are more intimidating that dogs on leashes!

 

[ 09-04-2002, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Stefan ]

[AA]

i completely agree. There's nothing worse than hiking on a trail when you smell and see this HUGE nasty pile strewn ALL OVER the trail. i've always wondered how they can justify horses over dogs.. horse shit sucks!! now, horsecock on the other hand....

[jon]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stefan:

Mike Gauthier I have a problem with a rule in MRNP!

 

Dogs are not allowed, but horses are allowed on trails. That seems bassackwards to me! Horses leave A LOT of dung--more than dogs. And horses are more intimidating that dogs on leashes!

---

Maybe you should take it up with the park superintendant instead of the lead climbing ranger?

[Alpine_Tom]

I think the issue is that dogs chase wildlife, but horses generally don't. (I think dogs go for horsecock too, come to think of it.) You also can't take dogs to Colchuck lake, for similar reasons.

[JoshK]

I won't even touch the dog subject, but I got to say I'm pretty sick of horses on trails. Esp. during rainy seasons they do a good deal of damage, not to mention the giant piles of crap everywhere.

 

On the PCT going to thomson the other day we saw a couple riding horses. It was 9am and the lady was smoking and drinking a bud light. They were friendly, and I admit it did give me a chuckle.

[Stefan]

I agree about talking to the superintendant. I would like to know Mike Gauthier's opinion on the subject.

 

Dogs chasing wildlife? Not with a leash on!

 

[ 09-04-2002, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Stefan ]

[terrible_ted]

You won't get any sympathy from me.

 

Dogs bark and more often than not are poorly trained. A large number of people out there have a personal history that leaves them deathly afraid of dogs. Even leashed ones.

 

As much as I dislike horseshit on the trail, not to mention muckholes, washouts and ankle busting ruts... I think the average horse packer is more responsible than the average dog owner.

 

Your argument makes little more sense than arguing that motorcycles should be allowed on horse approved trails. They shit even less than dogs.

 

-t

[lizard_brain]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stefan:

 

Dogs chasing wildlife? Not with a leash on!

---

Dogs with a leash on in the backcountry?!?!?! BBBWWWWHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!! Oh, GOD, you crack me up! That's great! Jesus! I can't stop laughing!!!

[lizard_brain]

P.S. Bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark.

[Mike_Gauthier]

i hear you folks!!!... you're singing to the choir.

personally, i'm not a fan of dogs or horses in the backcountry, in particular, i find horses disgusting b/c they pop just about everywhere, stink up the place, and are hard on trails...

with regard to rainier however, i can honestly say that i've NEVER seen a horse in the park... i'm sure that a few horse lovers do take their beasts up the PCT. but for the most part, they are prohibited from many other trails (like much of the wonderland.) you may have a good point, but it's sort of a mute issue. north cascade and olympic parks on the other hand are different story all together... i've seen tons of the animals there.

all this being said, jon is right. direct your comments to the Park Super:

Park Superintendent

Tahoma Woods, Star Route

Ashford, WA 98304

i (MY OPINION HERE FOLKS) have a distinct feeling, however, that the park wont budge much on the issue... there is a LONG standing tradition of horses, wilderness, settling the west, etc... not to mention, many of the trails were completed with the aid of horses and other pack stock. at north cascades and olympic, they still use horses to resupply the trail crews and other backcountry related projects...

so, you've got my personal opinion... i'm not into dogs or horses in the backcountry... but then i don't worry about it about too much b/c i just don't encounter them...

 

i have a question for you folks, what's all this stuff about horse cock? i KNOW that i must be missing something...

 

mike

[Off_White]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Gauthier:

i have a question for you folks, what's all this stuff about horse cock? i KNOW that i must be missing something...

 

mike

---

Its much more mundane than you think. Horsecock = Sausage. Think of it as GU for the trad crowd.

 

I looked at pack stock regulations for MRNP quite awhile back, contemplating llama packing with my family. It seemed that the trails open to stock (and they included llamas in the same category as horses) were quite limited, and not the spectacular sections. Mostly lower elevation too, aren't they?

 

We wound up on the PCT instead, heading south from Chinook Pass and had encounters with horses and dogs. Llamas make a lot of horses freak out, which is really not very amusing when there is a person on top. We had to engage in some shenannigans to get out of the way of horses, who definitely act like they have the right of way. Later, in camp, some guys dog came over to attack one of my llamas. They seemed afraid of going in to grab is dog, which chased the llama from one end of his tether to the other. When it became apparent he couldn't run away, the llama placed a back foot squarely in the head of the dog, with a sound like hitting a watermelon with a baseball bat. The dog immediately retired from the fray, but since llamas have soft pads instead of hooves the dog was merely wounded instead of killed.

 

Anyway, I found llamas to be much lower impact both in terms of trail wear (pads not hooves) and manure (pellets easy to sweep off the trail with a branch, and you're down on foot already anyway) but all in all animals are just a pain in the ass: too much impedimentia and stuff to deal with. I realized I'd much rather just throw all the stuff in my pack and go rather than play psychological games with a pack of new world camels.

[iain]

Sounds like you had a high voltage experience in the tetons Mike, glad to see you alive and kicking.

 

One thing's for sure, you will probably never get horses off the PCT so forget about it. That's a long-standing tradition. Other trails, maybe. At least in Oregon, there are programs to take disabled people into the Three Sisters Wilderness and stuff on horses. I think that's pretty cool. But I have to agree about the manure, especially when you find it right in the middle of a spring in an alpine meadow.

[Mike_Gauthier]

thanks for filling me in offwhite.... we use other terms for HC... lips and assholes, floor scrapings, offal, tumors, eyes, beaks and claws, etc... too many of the rainier climbing rangers are vegetarians... so much so that we have vegi cutting boards, knives and cookware at camp schurman... HC might be hard to find in the rainier climbing ranger huts...

 

thanks iain, it WAS a CLOSE one, too close... my partner and i have burned clothing for souvenirs... personally, i prefer nice photographic images. whoever said lightning never strikes twice was right... it hit us 3 times... and i thought helicopters were dangerous...

[payaso]

I've never been able to figure out why a horse is not considered a "pet" in so many wildernaess areas. If a pet is not allowed, why is a horse? How about enforcing blue bag rules for horses? Do they make em that big?

[payaso]

200 posts! Now isn't that special.

[Dwayner]

 

"TOUCH MY LLAMA!"

[Stefan]

Hey Mike,

 

I never see horses either in MRNP. In fact I have NEVER seen horses or horse trailers. It is just a rule that doesn't make sense to me.

 

I remember seeing this guy wanting to take his dog with him in the middle of January at Paradise--he was going cross country skiing. Snow was at about 8 or 9 feet deep. A ranger came to him and said his dog couldn't leave his car. The guy even had a leash on his dog. Was the dog going to scare off wildlife??? I don't think so....

 

I will send something to the superintendant. Maybe if I get my lazy ass off of cc.com......

[JoshK]

Stupid question here...but I've always wondered if it would be possible to have horses wear some sort of "crap collector" behind them? Then when it gets filled up, then owner can at least dump it in the bushes somewhere that people probably won't be walking.

 

It seems like it wouldn't be that hard to do something like this so at least the trails aren't covered in crap...

[estivate]

Regarding horses on trails, you are fighting against tradition. Sitting tall in the saddle, Marlboro Man, Ronald Reagan, herding bovines, all that shit. It may be a stupid, annoying anachronistic tradition perpetuated by blockheads who seem to go out of their way to do things the high-impact way, but we're stuck with it.

 

Personally, I would observe that horses are steppe animals adapted to flat and rolling terrain; they really have no business being in mountains or wet country. Let the horsey people ride around the Columbia basin and Eastern Montana to their hearts' content, I say.

[lizard_brain]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stefan:

The guy even had a leash on his dog.

---

And he was going to KEEP his dog on the leash the ENTIRE time he was out. Yeah, right. I think you want the Jokes for September thread.

[Alpine_Tom]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoshK:

Stupid question here...but I've always wondered if it would be possible to have horses wear some sort of "crap collector" behind them? Then when it gets filled up, then owner can at least dump it in the bushes somewhere that people probably won't be walking.

 

It seems like it wouldn't be that hard to do something like this so at least the trails aren't covered in crap...

---

The horses that they use in downtown Seattle to pull those tourist carriages are equipped with a sort of a diaper. But I bet you'd have more luck getting your average Marlboro Man horseman to wear a dress, than to use one of those things.

 

FWIW, our dog Max always pokes his south end off the trail discreetly when making a deposit. I don't know where he learned that, I certainly didn't teach him. (he does chase marmots and other vermin, so he's not a perfect backcountry citizen, but at least people don't have to step over his droppings the way you do horse apples.)

 

[ 09-05-2002, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Alpine Tom ]

[Mike_Gauthier]

hey radon

you're right, people break all sorts of rules. and the folks who write tickets don't usually shake down eveyone, (except for larry the tool, i wonder what he would do???, hey larry, you out there?)

and you're right, kids can be a pain, adults can be a pain, boy scout leaders can be a pain, federal employees can be a pain. so what else is new? i'm just stating the facts about the dogs with vests. you could be busted, but you probably know this. anyway, do you really think that you're well behaved dog will change the opinions of the world?

[mr.radon]

quote:

---

anyway, do you really think that you're well behaved dog will change the opinions of the world?

---

No, but it does bring smiles to the faces of kids and is a great tool to pick up chicks.

 

BTW: What was the deal with you getting hit by lightning. The singing zipper didn't warn you in time?

[mr.radon]

BTW: For the Exit 38 crowd too

 

A true story.

Spent the night close to the Mount Baker trailhead, left my 115# Rottweiler sleeping in the back of my car. (She passed away a few years ago) I was in a tent about 100' away. During the early morning hours someone didn't notice her sleeping. They decided for whatever reason to enter my car. The person was pleasantly surprised. No wallet swiped, no radio swiped. The person got away, don't know if my Rotti took a bite out of 'em or not. But whoever it was managed to get out and close the door. I only saw them running away, I wasn't going to chase in my underwear.

[lizard_brain]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr.radon:

I wouldn't do something to imposition a handicaped person.

---

You are.

 

[ 09-05-2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: lizard brain ]