un-bolting ethics thread

[archenemy]

when is it okay to remove a bolt (without the intention of replacing it)?

what is the least harmful (to the rock) way to remove a bolt?

[olyclimber]

fyi, if you spray in this thread, you may be moderated. just so you know that up front. but your spray free opinion is good. of course, if archenemy would prefer spray, it can be moved there.

[Off_White]

Well look who's the girl with her paddle in the shitpot! Well, what the hell, here's my opinion for all that's worth:

 

If it's your route, you're welcome to remove the bolts.

 

If it's an inappropriate retro-bolt (ie someone added bolts to an existing climb without fa permission/wide consensus) it may be appropriate too, though I'd urge as much conversation beforehand as possible, because a repeating cycle of chop & replace is really messy and damaging.

 

Personally, I don't feel that style disagreements justify bolt removal. If someone rap bolted and you don't like that, or if they placed more bolts than you would, that doesn't give you the right to remove the bolts. The principle of FA sanctity is a double edged sword.

 

Removal methods are varied, I know some have been talked about here. Minimizing scarring of the rock is an important goal. I have a modified slide hammer, like an axle bearing puller, that is great for removing split shanks and the heads of a Rawl 5 piece. People have used a wide assortment of other tools to remove bolts, just remember the minimal scarring goal.

 

Those commonly used Rawl's need to be disassembled: loosen the bolt, tap it in flush to unseat the head from the expansion sleeve, finish removing the bolt, fish out the outer sleeve, plastic bushing, and expansion sleeve using needle nose pliers and a bent piece of stiff wire, run the bolt back into the head, and remove that by force of some sort.

 

Holes can be filled with a piece of foam backer rod and the hole plugged with epoxy putty. The putty comes in a stick of the two parts, you cut off a piece and mix it by hand. A small piece of the appropriate rock or dirt can be set in the putty.

 

People who just bash things over with hammers and such should be locked in public stocks and flogged.

[chris]

An easy way to remove the bolt is with a "tuning fork". Take a #8 knifeblade piton and cut a fork into it about 3/4 - 2/3 of the length. With a hammer, you can use that to tap out the bolt, even if you can't loosen the nut on the bolt.

[G-spotter]

While that works for rusty old quarter inchers, I doubt it works on a brand new bolt.

 

Take off the hanger and nut, hacksaw through the threads, cut it flush with the rock, then tap the stud in with a peen and hammer if you can, and seal the hole with something... a pebble, maybe?

[chris]

While that works for rusty old quarter inchers, I doubt it works on a brand new bolt.

Actually, it does. Surprisingly well.

[G-spotter]

Really? Even brand new 3/8"? I should try that.

[pope]

Personally, I don't feel that style disagreements justify bolt removal. If someone rap bolted and you don't like that, or if they placed more bolts than you would, that doesn't give you the right to remove the bolts. The principle of FA sanctity is a double edged sword.

 

Why should one appeal to the idea of respecting the style of the first ascent party when defending rap-placed bolts? Correct me if I'm wrong, but rapelling and ascending are entirely different activities. When you do the math, one must deduce that rap-placed bolts aren't protected by the convention of respecting the first ascent party's fixed gear.

 

If they're offensive, and if they weren't placed during an ascent, I say remove them. (There's no shortage of clip-n-go climbs).

[Off_White]

While that works for rusty old quarter inchers, I doubt it works on a brand new bolt.

 

Take off the hanger and nut, hacksaw through the threads, cut it flush with the rock, then tap the stud in with a peen and hammer if you can, and seal the hole with something... a pebble, maybe?

 

Yeah, seal the hole with some of that epoxy putty.

 

Can you really remove an expansion bolt like a Rawl 5 piece with a tuning fork? I'd be very surprised, and you'd be fighting it all the way. I can see it working on a compression bolt like a split shank button head.

 

Pope, the way I see it, if it's alright to alter a route because you personally don't like the way it was put up, then there are no rules. You think it's only valid if it's a ground up route? Someone else thinks it's only valid if the route is safe enough for the masses. And yes, that opinion is out there, and those folks would be as justified in making the Bachar-Yerian a bolt ladder as you would in removing Condorphamine Addiction, because the criteria is the same: how does the individual feel about a route. The argument about whether rap bolted routes are valid was over a long time ago, so your assertion that it defines the standard is not widely accepted.

 

"Offensive" is a personal and relative standard.

[mattp]

You could draw the line where Pope suggests, but I'd say some of the most dubious climbs I've seen involve closely spaced bolt ladders that really don't go anywhere. They were done from the ground up and personally I’d rather see them erased than some of the better-crafted but rappel-placed routes nearby.

 

We have debated the "legitimacy" of rap bolted vs ground-up first ascents before, and I don't think we are going to get very far re-arguing that point, but I think there are "good" and "bad" routes that have been done either way and some great routes around here involved some of both.

[billcoe]

fyi, if you spray in this thread, you may be moderated. just so you know that up front. but your spray free opinion is good. of course, if archenemy would prefer spray, it can be moved there.

 

Since it's pretty much straight opinions it's going to be 100 percent spray. I have nothing to add.

_________________________________________________________

 

OW, you will be happy to know that when Googled, "Pat Robertson had sex with my younger brother" the top 2 links are your posts on CC.com.

[TimL]

You guys talk way to much about bolting. Go climb something.

[kix]

Q: when is it okay to remove a bolt (without the intention of replacing it)?

 

A: when you have more firepower than the other guy.

 

 

Q: what is the least harmful way to remove a bolt?

 

A: remote controlled predator with a hellfire missle. requires no friendlies in harms way.

 

 

face it folks, the bolting issue boils down to warfare.

[archenemy]

So am I understanding that removing some of the bolts from a climb is only okay when a)you are the one who put up the bolts in the first place; or b)someone else retrobolted

and in other situations, you cannot remove just a couple of bolts from a climb--you have to remove them all. (Oh, And you need FA OK to do this.)

Is that the scoop?

[catbirdseat]

Why don't you just explain the situation to us exactly as it is? You are dancing all around on this. You don't have to say where it is, but is it your route?

[archenemy]

the situation is that I am trying to get an understanding of when it's okay to remove bolts and when it's not.

Thanks to everyone for putting their thoughts and suggestions out there--much appreciated.

[DirtyHarry]

I'm sure, like most issues in the climbing community, you will find an unequivocal concensus on this issue.

[archenemy]

Fortunately, that's not what I am looking for.

However, if there were only one answer out there, I wouldn't need to solicit input and save a bunch of hassle, eh?

Pantera rules.

[G-spotter]

Who cares what other people think. The freedom to place bolts is the freedom to remove them, and vice versa. Place, chop, place, chop, it's like one of those Russian drinking games where you have a shot of vodka and then slap your opponent in the face, and the last man standing wins. Eventually either the chopper gives up and the bolts remain or the bolter gives up and the bolts are gone. You can talk circles around it but all the talk in the world will not deter individuals with strong opinions from acting.

[DirtyHarry]

In general, chop bolts if: 1) the move could be protected with reasonable, available removable pro; or, if 2)the bolts protect a route originally led with removable pro and first ascentionist has not given her consent to bolt the route; or, if 3) the bolter just plain put too many bolts on a pitch, like one every three feet.

[Dechristo]

To remove a bolt, all you need is my approval.

[Off_White]

In general, chop bolts if: 1) the move could be protected with reasonable, available removable pro; or, if 2)the bolts protect a route originally led with removable pro and first ascentionist has not given her consent to bolt the route; or, if 3) the bolter just plain put too many bolts on a pitch, like one every three feet.

 

I think 1) and 2) can be reasonable approaches, though Dru's russian drinking game makes a fucking mess that threaten's everyone's access. I think 3) is just the flip side of adding bolts if the bolter just plain didn't put enough bolts on a pitch, like one every 30 feet.

[G-spotter]

OffWhite - do you really think that either the rampant bolt placers or the rabid bolt choppers care one little bit about everyone's access or protecting the rock? They only care about personal statements. So all the purported 'rational agreement' and hand holding and Kumbaya in the world doesn't make much difference.

 

Personally I have seen bolts come and go at Squamish with minimal or no discussion and I haven't seen many repeat cycles of place and chop. Mostly people get the message pretty quick when bolts either are or are not wanted. And frankly seeing a scar where you placed a brand new bolt last week, or vice versa, is sometimes a more effective message than a "reasoned discussion" that changes no one's mind.

[Off_White]

OffWhite - do you really think that either the rampant bolt placers or the rabid bolt choppers care one little bit about everyone's access or protecting the rock? They only care about personal statements. So all the purported 'rational agreement' and hand holding and Kumbaya in the world doesn't make much difference.

 

No, I guess I don't believe that. Do you mean I learned all those chords for nothing?

[G-spotter]

I'm pretty sure you learned SOMETHING useful at band camp