Alpinfox Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 We can try to live by the impossible credo of the Department of Homeland Security - "Be on high alert at all times", but it won't work. We can take safety classes, first aid classes, scrambling classes, walking-on-pine-needle-covered-slab classes, and it might even help lower the odds, but shit will still happen. We can read all about every climbing accident that has ever happened and try to avoid similar situations, but it won't work. Shit will continue to happen. The mountains are a dangerous place. Rocks crumble, glaciers fall apart, trees fall over, lightining strikes, and snaffles attack. We can do our best to minimize the risk, but some risk will still be there. That's part of what makes it fun and interesting, but sometimes the bites you in the ass. Shit always has, and always will, continue to happen. Be prepared, be safe, but have fun. Don't let fear paralyze you and make you do stupid shit like take four hours to climb 1000 feet of 4th class terrain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Have beer but do not be afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 The 'shit' needs to be divided into 3 classes: 1 - Acts of God/nature (totally unpredicable rock falls, landslides, lightning strikes, and perhaps some avalanches). We cannot control or predict these. 2 - Human error (rappelling off rope ends, tie-in errors, belayer errors resulting in dropped climbers, slipping on ropeless approaches/descents). These are preventable. 3 - Hybrid acts (slips on wet rock that was difficult to protect, avalanches that might have been predicted, leaderfalls due to broken rock/ice, rockfall in gullies). Most of the accidents we hear about are in categories 2 and 3, where experience and good decisions make a huge difference. Yes, shit does happen, but we should keep practicing, keep learning, and keep our minds focused in dangerous situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 I agree. Work to avoid the preventable (subjective) hazards, and take action to manage risk from objective dangers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted May 23, 2006 Author Share Posted May 23, 2006 I agree. Work to avoid the preventable (subjective) hazards, and take action to manage risk from objective dangers. And shit will still happen. That's life. If you think you can be 100% safe all the time, you are delusional or stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knotzen Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 It's all true. In the "shit happens" vein, I always remember an incident with a woman who died on Del Campo some years back. She was scrambling, unroped, and apparently a rock she was holding onto dislodged, and she fell. That kind of thing just does happen sometimes, it's the nature of the mountains. There's always an element of risk from objective hazards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 loose rock is not purely objective. Knock Knock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knotzen Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Let's not pick nits. Obviously, there are rocks dislodged by people, and there are rocks that are already loose, that one needs to watch for. Didn't think that needed to be spelled out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Obviously, there are rocks dislodged by people, and there are rocks that are already loose, that one needs to watch for. If a rock is dislodged it is already loose. There are lots of loose rocks that are not dislodged by climbers, but via skill and experience are either avoided or used for upward advancement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Obviously, there are rocks dislodged by people, and there are rocks that are already loose, that one needs to watch for. If a rock is dislodged it is already loose. There are lots of loose rocks that are not dislodged by climbers, but via skill and experience are either avoided or used for upward advancement. When I encounter a loose hold, I just put it back where it was and use a different one. The experienced climber doesn't rely entirely on one hold, at least on 4th Class terrain. I remember an incident in which Ben pulled off a huge rock, but it was fifth class, and he was roped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knotzen Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Be prepared, be safe, but have fun. Don't let fear paralyze you and make you do stupid shit like take four hours to climb 1000 feet of 4th class terrain. This is my point. If you're leading 5th class rock, you want to test each hold. If you're scrambling 1,000 feet of 3rd or 4th class rock, you move quickly and are more likely to -- oh fuck it, I'm not in the mood to argue. I know I'm right, but let's say we're all right, and get the fuck outside and play. Carry on, then, mates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 I test each step even on Class 1 because even there, right on the trail, shit happens and I don't want to step in it. Will someone please potty train the wildlife? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 what a coincidence, i just took a shit! stubbed my toe on the way back in the door too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 what a coincidence, i just took a shit! stubbed my toe on the way back in the door too... You should use a stool softener (and crap in the hole, not on the floor) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002949768_ndig24.html You can die walking to the fridge to get a beer. Should he have tested his living room rug? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 what a coincidence, i just took a shit! stubbed my toe on the way back in the door too... You should use a stool softener (and crap in the hole, not on the floor) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Good posts Alpinfox and Rad. Too bad people had to poo all over it. Sometimes it's a combination of a few decisions made about small objective/subjective hazzards that when misjudged add up to a big problem. More experienced climbers have enough context and experience with the individual variables to manage the big and small picture simultaneously. They also have more experience to draw from when shit does happen. Some call that wisdom. People who haven't been climbing that long simply have not put in the time to develop this yet and are too arrogant/defensive about their abilities to admit it. They're too busy competing and trying to prove themselves. Unfortunately, climbers by nature are not humble creatures willing to admit they are not in control of the situation. When ego is on the line it can be harder to back down... Be careful out there this weekend, both newbies and hardcore experienced alpinists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 "there is no safety in numbers - or in anything else" - james thurber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken4ord Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Be prepared, be safe, but have fun. Don't let fear paralyze you and make you do stupid shit like take four hours to climb 1000 feet of 4th class terrain. This is my point. If you're leading 5th class rock, you want to test each hold. If you're scrambling 1,000 feet of 3rd or 4th class rock, you move quickly and are more likely to -- oh fuck it, I'm not in the mood to argue. I know I'm right, but let's say we're all right, and get the fuck outside and play. Carry on, then, mates. I am sorry there is no way in hell I going to test each hold on 5th class terrrain and just say fuck it on 4th. That is rediculus. You'll never get a route done. Whether I am on 3rd, 4th or 5th class, I am going to assess mentally what hazards lie ahead. This applies to loose rock, if I see potential hazard, then I am going to test those that might be suspect. Oh yeah I know I am not right, I am ok with it. Rad I like how you broke it down, and yeah you can eliminate a lot of self induced hazard, but what A-fox is saying or at least what I think he is trying to say, no matter what you do to prevent a situation, at some point shit is going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Be careful driving to work too. There are crazy people out there. And if you see an angry gentleman talking on his cellphone while riding his bike at topspeed, it is best to just give him the right of way and all the space he needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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