Kudos to The Stranger

[JayB]

They Published the Satanic Cartoons

 

It would definitely have sounded a bit off-key if they would have declined to publish the cartoons on they grounds that they would offend religious sensibilities. I think they join The Western Standard and The New York Post as the only two publications in North America to publish the cartoons. Kudos to whoever is responsible for this decision.

[crackers]

Did they publish all of them or just the four I saw when I loaded their website?

[Peter_Puget]

linky

[sexual_chocolate]

Way to stand up to Muslim Fascism! Such heroic bravery should not go unnoticed!

 

We as bearers of a Free Society must publish these cartoons repeatedly so as to prove to everyone that we will not be held captive by those who oppose Freedom. We must set an example, and what better opportunity in this fight for nothing less than the Freedom of the world might we find? What better opportunity than the opportunity to publish these fine incisive jarringly humorous and insightful cartoons?

 

Remember: Let Freedom Ring!

[Off_White]

Excuse me sir, may I see your drm certificate for online use of that copyrighted word? May I point out that we have former eastern bloc prisons full of people like you, but we can always squeeze another in.

[JayB]

Way to stand up to Muslim Fascism! Such heroic bravery should not go unnoticed!

 

We as bearers of a Free Society must publish these cartoons repeatedly so as to prove to everyone that we will not be held captive by those who oppose Freedom. We must set an example, and what better opportunity in this fight for nothing less than the Freedom of the world might we find? What better opportunity than the opportunity to publish these fine incisive jarringly humorous and insightful cartoons?

 

Remember: Let Freedom Ring!

 

Theo Van Gogh is unavailable for comment.

[sexual_chocolate]

The Stranger will bring him back.

[olyclimber]

I also want to say kudos to the Stranger for their labs. Such entertainment!

[JayB]

The Stranger will bring him back.

 

Care to aquaint the readers of this website with the particulars of Theo Van Gogh's demise?

[cj001f]

The Stranger will bring him back.

 

Care to aquaint the readers of this website with the particulars of Theo Van Gogh's demise?

 

You've got even greater delay in protesting than the islamic wack jobs!

[Jim]

Gwladys Fouché

Monday February 6, 2006

 

 

Jyllands-Posten, the Danish newspaper that first published the cartoons of the prophet Muhammad that have caused a storm of protest throughout the Islamic world, refused to run drawings lampooning Jesus Christ, it has emerged today.

The Danish daily turned down the cartoons of Christ three years ago, on the grounds that they could be offensive to readers and were not funny

 

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1703501,00.html#article_continue

[JayB]

Apples and oranges.

 

If people in Europe had been murdered for espousing sentiments that were critical of Christianity, and several politicians and media figures were in hiding and fearing for their lives as a result of death threats that they'd received on account of their criticisms of Christianity - then we'd be talking about the same thing.

 

If, as a result of publishing the "Cartoon lampooning Jesus" masses of fanatics had been attacking embassies and threatening to engage in suicide bombings in order to frighten their non-Christian critics into silence, and to restricting the scope of their secular freedoms so that they'd be consistent with the most strident and dogmatic interpretations of the Bible, then we'd be talking about the same thing.

 

There was a time, not so long ago, when all of these things would have been possible in the West. The fact that they are well-nigh unthinkable is the end result of centuries of blood and sacrifice in order to secure these freedoms, and I for one am thankful that there are still people in the West who refuse to bend over and forfeit them to the latest batch of fanatics who'd like to see them restricted to suit their tastes.

 

I think you just catapulted yourself into first place in the "Reflexive Western Self-Loathing Sweepstakes" with that entry, Jimbo. The Mohammed Bouyeri Trophy is yours to keep.

 

*Not that trivialities like this should hinder the self-flagelation Jim, but the cartoon in question was actually published in an Egyptian newspaper at the height of Ramadan, and attracted little or no notice. If you did a bit of reading you might also discover the reason why there was a four month gap between the publication of these cartoons, and the - cough -spontaneous outrage that erupted in the Middle East.

[Peter_Puget]

Jay you could have simply pointed out that Jim seems not to understand the difference between choosing to do something and being compelled to do something.

[JayB]

The Stranger will bring him back.

 

Care to aquaint the readers of this website with the particulars of Theo Van Gogh's demise?

 

You've got even greater delay in protesting than the islamic wack jobs!

 

I should keep my audience in mind when employing subtety, but the point was not to protest his death - which did indeed garner remarkably little interest or comment in certain quarters - but to point out that despite the trite mockery of freedoms that SC treated us to, there are people who have been killed for exercising them recently, and many others who are in hiding and afraid for their lives. I have a hunch that this kind of ironic detatchment would evaporate rather quickly if anyone here found themselves on the wrong end of a credible death threat for criticizing someone's religion, but since that's blessedly unlikely to happen, I suspect we'll all be free to indulge in more sophomoric relativizing at no peril to ourselves. Don't think the young women in Les Cites' will enjoy the same luxury, but I can understand why that's a minor concern next to denouncing Karl Rove et al.

[cj001f]

I should keep my audience in mind when employing subtety, but the point was not to protest his death - which did indeed garner remarkably little interest or comment in certain quarters - but to point out that despite the trite mockery of freedoms that SC treated us to, there are people who have been killed for exercising them recently, and many others who are in hiding and afraid for their lives. I have a hunch that this kind of ironic detatchment would evaporate rather quickly if anyone here found themselves on the wrong end of a credible death threat for criticizing someone's religion, but since that's blessedly unlikely to happen, I suspect we'll all be free to indulge in more sophomoric relativizing at no peril to ourselves. Don't think the young women in Les Cites' will enjoy the same luxury, but I can understand why that's a minor concern next to denouncing Karl Rove et al.

 

I'd ignore your condscension and onanistic bloviating to try and focus on your rather feeble point, but all my retorts will be interpreted as relativistic since you've so conveniently staked out an absurdly absolute coordinate system based solely on your skewed frame of reference. Instead I'll use a Peter Fleming quote, and let you draw your own inferences:

"Public opinion in England is sharply divided on the subject of Russia. On the one hand you have the crusty majority, who believe it to be a hell on earth; on the other you have the half-baked minority who believe it to be a terrestrial paradise in the making. Both cling to their opinions with the tenacity, respectively, of the die-hard and the fanatic. Both are hoplessly wrong."

 

I do say your efforts to reframe arguments at your pleasure is almost Rovian.

[sexual_chocolate]

Care to aquaint the readers of this website with the particulars of Theo Van Gogh's demise?

 

I would start with the following background info on our esteemed Theo:

 

He incurred the anger of leading members of the Jewish community by making comments about what he saw as the Jewish preoccupation with Auschwitz. This quote from a 1991 magazine interview is a typical example of such commentary. Van Gogh explained a "smell of caramel" by stating that "today they're only burning diabetic Jews." When he was criticized by the Jewish historian Evelien Gans, he wrote in Folia Civitatis magazine: "I suspect that Ms. Gans gets wet dreams about being fucked by Dr Mengele."

 

In the late 1990s he started to focus on Islam. He caused widespread resentment in the Muslim community by consistently referring to them as geitenneukers (goat-fuckers).

 

A rather nasty fellow, in my eyes. Worthy of assasination? Of course not (I tend not to support assasination (or murder) in any form, whether capital "punishment" or organized war). I make no apologies for his killer, but when one actually sees that Theo was no saint martyred for his principles, but rather a rabble-rouser vindictively crucifying any and all with his pen, one begins to see that the murder didn't occur in a vacuum.

 

And yes, his murder was a rather macabre affair. It seems his 26 year old killer was rather upset, pumping 8 bullets into his body, then stabbing away with a knife, and finally leaving a note pinned to his body with the same knife.

 

And what is your point? That Muslims are out of control?

I'd counter that both "sides" are out of control, with your implicit and explicit position only adding to this current state of affairs, hardening the polarization when some form of softening is what is needed (imo).

[EWolfe]

A "why do you hate America" kind of thing, mm-hmm.

 

This, as all of the article, is spot on:

what’s happening here is that a gang of bullies—led by a country, Saudi Arabia, where Bibles are forbidden, Christians tortured, Jews routinely labeled “apes and pigs” in the state-controlled media, and apostasy from Islam punished by death—is trying to compel a tiny democracy to live by its own theocratic rules. To succumb to pressure from this gang would simply be to invite further pressure, and lead to further concessions—not just by Denmark but by all of democratic Europe. And when they’ve tamed Europe, they’ll come after America.

[JayB]

"I'd ignore your condscension and onanistic bloviating to try and focus on your rather feeble point, but all my retorts will be interpreted as relativistic since you've so conveniently staked out an absurdly absolute coordinate system based solely on your skewed frame of reference. Instead I'll use a Peter Fleming quote, and let you draw your own inferences:

"Public opinion in England is sharply divided on the subject of Russia. On the one hand you have the crusty majority, who believe it to be a hell on earth; on the other you have the half-baked minority who believe it to be a terrestrial paradise in the making. Both cling to their opinions with the tenacity, respectively, of the die-hard and the fanatic. Both are hoplessly wrong."

 

I do say your efforts to reframe arguments at your pleasure is almost Rovian."

 

 

 

It must be "Oblique Retort Theme Day" amongst the usual crew of antagonists. Or is maybe its "Inapt Analogy Theme Day."

 

I'd certainly be interested in learning what, exactly, a middle-ground between preserving secular freedoms and acquiescing to the perogatives Islamists would constitute - in concrete terms. While you are mapping out the Islamo-Western equivalent of the malaise-laden Carter-Brezhneve detente, you might also elaborate on the proper channels for such a negotiation. Who should Westerners consult to determine whether or not their behavior is permissible? If there's no single authority that they can submit the matter to for approval, how should they conduct themselves in the event of a disagreement? It'd also be interesting to learn what assurances the average politician, editor, filmmaker, author, etc would have that the initial round of concessions would be sufficient to assure their safety indefinitely. If there's nothing more than more daunting than their own goodwill preventing the Islamists from pressing their advantage to the fullest, it seems rather unlikely that the first round of concessions the interest of securing this vaunted middle-ground would be the last.

 

With respect to the Pete Fleming quote, I don't think that the historical consensus will be terribly kind to his sort of high-minded-impartiality-from-afar, as this sentiment is rather difficult to reconcile with the fact that the population which survived the famines and purges was detained within the said country at gunpoint. But if we're swapping these things, I'll leave you with my own Arab proverb which is rather apropos at the moment - "A falling camel draws many knives."

[JayB]

Care to aquaint the readers of this website with the particulars of Theo Van Gogh's demise?

 

I would start with the following background info on our esteemed Theo:

 

He incurred the anger of leading members of the Jewish community by making comments about what he saw as the Jewish preoccupation with Auschwitz. This quote from a 1991 magazine interview is a typical example of such commentary. Van Gogh explained a "smell of caramel" by stating that "today they're only burning diabetic Jews." When he was criticized by the Jewish historian Evelien Gans, he wrote in Folia Civitatis magazine: "I suspect that Ms. Gans gets wet dreams about being fucked by Dr Mengele."

 

In the late 1990s he started to focus on Islam. He caused widespread resentment in the Muslim community by consistently referring to them as geitenneukers (goat-fuckers).

 

A rather nasty fellow, in my eyes. Worthy of assasination? Of course not (I tend not to support assasination (or murder) in any form, whether capital "punishment" or organized war). I make no apologies for his killer, but when one actually sees that Theo was no saint martyred for his principles, but rather a rabble-rouser vindictively crucifying any and all with his pen, one begins to see that the murder didn't occur in a vacuum.

 

And yes, his murder was a rather macabre affair. It seems his 26 year old killer was rather upset, pumping 8 bullets into his body, then stabbing away with a knife, and finally leaving a note pinned to his body with the same knife.

 

And what is your point? That Muslims are out of control?

I'd counter that both "sides" are out of control, with your implicit and explicit position only adding to this current state of affairs, hardening the polarization when some form of softening is what is needed (imo).

 

Not the most savory fellow, but he's not the only one in the crosshairs at the moment, comrade. Should we all shrug and abandon Hirsan Ali to the same fate?

 

Moderation can be an effective tool when one's adversary is convinced that one is dealing from a position of strength, and that they too have something to gain from excercising a bit of moderation, but the softening of Petain and Chamberlain did rather little to encourage either moderation or softening in their Teutonic Brethren. I'd certainly be interested in hearing what would such moderation and softening constitute in this context.

 

I also wonder if it's a mere coincidence that the prevalance of death threats and intimidation seem to escalate in direct proportion to the levels of sympathy, understanding, and tolerance that the societies that they are directed against offer-up to the parties responsible for making the threats. How can we account for the relative quiescence of the Islamists in, and against, say - Poland?

[Dru]

Ask a cartoonist: garry trudeau respondss

 

Are you going to make a cartoon response to the plight of your fellow cartoonists in Denmark who are now in hiding, in fear for their lives? Will you be making any sort of public statement?

- - Larry, Santa Rosa, CA

 

 

This issue may or may not prove to be something GBT addresses in the strip itself, as he did when the fatwa was declared against Salman Rushdie. However, we're happy to share with readers his recent comments to the San Francisco Chronicle:

 

What do you think of the State Department's statement, essentially condemning the publication of the cartoons in European newspapers?

 

A concession to reality. It's the State Department. What is the U.S. supposed to say -- that it approves of cartoons that set off demonstrations around the world? Just how much more hated in the Muslim world do we need to be?

 

Why has the U.S. news media (broadcast and print), almost universally refused to publish the cartoons?

 

I assume because they believe, correctly, it is unnecessarily inflammatory. It's legal to run them, but is it wise? The Danish editor who started all this actually recruited cartoonists to draw offensive cartoons (some of those he invited declined). And why did he do it? To demonstrate that in a Western liberal society he could. Well, we already knew that. Some victory for freedom of expression. An editor who deliberately sets out to provoke or hurt people because he's worried about "self-censorship" is not an editor I'd care to work for.

 

Will you be including any images of the Prophet Muhammad in upcoming cartoons?

 

No. Nor will I be using any imagery that mocks Jesus Christ.

 

What do you think of the Joint Chiefs issuing a protest to The Washington Post over the cartoon of the U.S. soldier/amputee returning from Iraq?

 

Well, it was a literal reading on their part. Toles wasn't mocking wounded soldiers -- he was just using a strong metaphor. I thought it was an effective cartoon, but the blowback was understandable, and I'm sure Tom was ready for it.

 

Is there an echo?

 

If you mean a personal echo, not really. I have 600 client editors, and I don't for a moment expect them all on any given day to judge my work suitable for their wildly different audiences. We have editors for a reason. Just because a society has almost unlimited freedom of expression doesn't mean we should ever stop thinking about its consequences in the real world. If The New York Times had commissioned a dozen vicious, anti-Semitic cartoons, would we be having a comparable debate? I don't think so.

 

[foraker]

To quote a cartoon:

 

"Your voices are making me sick."

[sexual_chocolate]

Not the most savory fellow, but he's not the only one in the crosshairs at the moment, comrade. Should we all shrug and abandon Hirsan Ali to the same fate?

 

Ali wants protection, which she has (Theo refused it); I don't understand your suggestion, nor its relevance to this discussion; who is suggesting we ignore her plight?

 

Moderation can be an effective tool when one's adversary is convinced that one is dealing from a position of strength, and that they too have something to gain from excercising a bit of moderation, but the softening of Petain and Chamberlain did rather little to encourage either moderation or softening in their Teutonic Brethren.

I don't think that Muslims as a whole have achieved power within Denmark which surpasses that of the Danish. I think you might agree, so again I don't understand your statement above. It is the non-muslim danes who are in power, so I don't think they need to worry about mediation from a position of weakness, imo.

 

And the comparison between Hitler and Muslims is a bit inflammatory and misguided, don't you think? I'll leave this one for you to expand on, if you wish.

 

I also wonder if it's a mere coincidence that the prevalance of death threats and intimidation seem to escalate in direct proportion to the levels of sympathy, understanding, and tolerance that the societies that they are directed against offer-up to the parties responsible for making the threats. How can we account for the relative quiescence of the Islamists in, and against, say - Poland?

 

I'm not familiar with the above correlation. Maybe you have an article or other source of information on this phenomenon.

As to Poland, I'm not at all familiar with its intra-societal relations or general demographics, so for me to understand your citing of it as an example would require further knowledge on my part; perhaps you can tell me why it serves as an example for the point you were trying to make.

 

 

As to suggestions in general: I think the Danish PM was misguided in his refusal to show any sympathy towards the muslim position. While I don't think he needed to apologize for the actions of an allegedly right-wing provocateur news-paper, he certainly could have met with the involved parties (I am not under the impression that the "radical" muslim groups can be marginalized by simply ignoring them; I think the world-wide reaction shows the level of attention they command).

 

And as a final point: I have an affinity towards Trudeau's statements above. One doesn't need to be provocative to prove one can be provocative. We already know we have a free press, so why print some bad cartoons that are understood to be tasteless and offensive? Just to prove we can? How lacking in sound judgement and maturity. A like response is only to be expected....

[JayB]

The main shortcoming of your response, and Trudeau's and Jim's is that it ignores the fact that people in Europe who crticize the more retrograde and millitant elements within the Islamic community increasingly do so at their own peril. Those who choose to mock or criticize Christianity labor under no such threat, so the context is entirely different.

 

It's also interesting to observe this newfound sense highminded sensitivity towards religious beliefs emerge at the same moment that failing to do so would entail some personal risk.

 

With regards to the religious beliefs in question, and the cartoons, I think that they were primarily directed at those who use Islam to foment violence and murder, rather than at the religion itself, which is an important distinction. You will also recall from the WSJ article which you read that the cartoons in question aroused no outrage until certain Danish Imams forged a number of cartoons which were actually calculated to generate outrage, included them in a pamphlet which contained the original cartoons, flew to the Middle East, and claimed that all of the cartoons had actually been published in Europe. The fact that this unrest didn't really take off until a number of Arab governments who were keen to demonstrate their Islamic credentials to increasingly restive populations made pains to loudly condemn them is also worth noting.

 

The last thing I'd take issue with is the notion that remaining silent and refusing to criticize and condemn the Islamists will actually benefit Muslims in Europe or anywhere else. IMO if they see entire Western societies cowed by a determined band of fanatics, they'll rightly conclude that raising their own voices in protest would be both futile and suicidal. How such a state of affairs would be beneficial to anyone is beyond me.

[foraker]

Don't you people have a thesis to write or something? Or is this it?

[underworld]

a thesis would be less wordy...