Greed

[erik]

the commercialization of climbing is like anything else growing and tainted. i do not know how one could not see this coming. we live in a capitalistic society and greed is what makes the country grow and function. if we do not have greed we do not have america. so deal with it.

though i doubt it could be chaulked under greed. if you called the commercialization greed then i am going to call driving greedy as well. remember when cars were xtreme and new? well shit now most people have two of them. with more horse power then 1st 10 combind.

though what is really greedy is the idea that we can keep the wilderness to oursleves there are so many poeple in the world and they all what a piece of the good life. so unless you are imparting good faith and the love of all humnakind then you are greedy.

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greedgreedgreedYOUANDME!

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[This message has been edited by cascadeclimbers (edited 06-20-2001).]

[Alpine_Tom]

It's interesting that no one has mentioned the first thing that popped into my head when I read Donna's post -- it's the hordes of climbers that constitute a "market" for cool, high-end gear. If the climbing community was the same size now as it was in the early '60s, there would be no sticky rubber climbing shoes, no grigris, no new-matic crampons, no plastic boots, no six different brands of high-tech ice tools with replaceable blades, no kernmantle ropes, no high-quality route books. Chinnard made his own pitons from Model-T leaf springs; would you be willing (or able) to do that, in exchange for solitude in the hills?

And, you know, it has never been hard for me to get away from the crowds, without really trying. I was one of two parties on Glacier Peak when I climbed it four years ago. I have been the only human on Mt. Shuksan, one beautiful afternoon in April a few years back. Two winters ago I solo'd the Wyeast route on Hood, and I saw a total of three people, and only one of them was close enough to talk to. This spring on Leuthold Couloir, we didn't see another person from the time we left Illumination saddle to when we got down to the ski area. And last month on our attempt of Colchuck Peak, we saw some footprints, but not another person the entire way. Not exactly hard-core climbing, but not particularly obscure. I'd edit the quote above to say that 95% of the climbers are using 5% of the land. If you want to hike up to Camp Muir, or the Snow Lake trail, have fun, but don't expect solitude. But in my experience, you don't have to get very far off the trail AT ALL to be about as alone as you could reasonably expect.

[Dru]

If you don't think crowds add to the quality of a climb (and I don't) then it's probably best to seek outclimbs that aren't crowded.

For myself, doing the standard slog up Mt. Budweiser or what have you is not a CLASSIC ROUTE and it will never be SELECTED or RECOMMENDED in or by me, just because i don't find crowds fun. But some people only know how to do what's in the guidebook. So - it's good - I know what not to go for.

But when I'm in an area that's not my home area, like Jtree, I don't have local knowledge to rely upon,so I have to go by the guidebooks. That's when I run into crowds. And thats when speed tactics, ability to pass, or just turning and leaving work. Still haven't done Sail Away but there are no-star routes out there just as good and minus the crowds.

Crowded routes are good for scooping booty though. solo Diedre on a Sunday evening with a nut tool and it will pay for itself after a while.

[philfort]

mmm... booty. Last time I did the Tooth there were two brand new cams stuck in cracks along the way. We decided to try to get them out on the descent, but a thunderstorm made us concentrate on descending instead of the booty :-)

[Lambone]

To Donna's Q:

I think that any philosopher would ask:

If there were no climbers, would the mountains have any quality?

Similar to the tree falling in the woods debate.

Here are some of Aldo Leopolds thoughts, "But all conservation of wilderness is self defeating, for to cherish we must see and fondle, and when we have seen and fondled, there is no wilderness left to cherish." and, "Parks are made to bring music to the many, but by the time many are attuned to hear it there is little left but noise." (A Sand County Almanac)

This is one of my favorite books, and considering it was written in the forties, I would say this is not a new issue. Love of wilderness came along way before the comercialization of it. I would argue that it is not the magazines promoting the wilderness, but the wilderness promoting the magazines.

If you don't like the crowds on the Zodiac, try a route that forces you into your top-steps... that is your specialty isn't it.

 

[freeclimb9]

Sure, some climbing areas have become very crowded. Just this last winter I stopped off at my old playground of J-tree, and was amazed at the changes: lots of climbers, and quite a bit of new road building. I still had a great afternoon of easy solos and bouldering.

Other areas will just never be heavily used; They have their own "protections" in the form of long and/or arduous approaches. When I lived in Arizona, I fervently pursued first ascents in a remote area, and kept everything secret. After a few years, I realized that even if I offered money, I couldn't get people out there to climb. Now I mostly climb in Utah and Idaho, and I can't recall the last time I had to wait for a route. And back in March, I enjoyed several days of cragging and bouldering in Icicle canyon in Leavonworth with only the occasional other climber to be seen.

for me, crowding just isn't an issue. I wish the same for everyone.

[haireball]

Donna,

Don't succumb to attitude sickness...

The flip side of the greed issue is that money talks. The more climbers, and the more money that depends on our sport, the more likely it is that the sport will, in some form, survive and continue. In 1985, the Peshastin Pinnacles were closed to climbing because the orchardists who owned them were advised by their insurors and legal counsel that they could not afford the liability of allowing climbers to use their rocks. Bitterman and Flick (those orchardists) had nothing against climbers...they had welcomed us for decades. And they graciously offered the Pinnacles to anyone who would buy them and assume that liablility. A few of us local hards took them seriously, and began a fund-raising effort that has grown into the operation you now know as the Access Fund. One of the guys who sat in Chrissie Gilbert's living room back in '85 when we got serious about saving the Pinnacles still sits on the board of the Access Fund today. Neither he nor I like crowds. We are fortunate to live where we can climb in the Icicle Canyon or the Pinnacles after work and on weekdays. There is plenty of rock around for those who want to walk to solitude. More critical, however than the numbers, I believe, is how those number behave. Do we pack out our shit (literally)? "blue-bags" are not just for Rainier. Are we civil to one another? Are we civil to gawkers? Just because I no longer own a functional bolt kit, shall I forbid bolting? I think it's here to stay, and our numbers will continue to grow with the general population. I had my kids climbing as soon as they could walk. I take their friends climbing when the other parents will permit it. Personally, I'd love to see climbing more of a mainstream activity. It doesn't have to be like the alps because we can look at the history of European climbing and choose not to repeatit. I look back on thirty-plus years of hard-core climbing and what it has meant to me, and I can't bring myself to say "Well, I got mine...sorry there's none for you". That friend of mine on the Access Fund Board?... also personally owns Rat Creek Boulder. He bought it to protect it for climbers, and when he hears of neighboring landowners hassling climbers using the boulder, he calls up the Chelan County Sheriff and complains about the neighbors bothering his "friends" using his private land. As Paul Harvey says "and now you know the OTHER side of the story". Be grateful for, and friendly to every climber you see...

[dlando]

I find it interesting that so many folks think "greed," (or its more evil cousin "corporate greed") is responsible for the growing popularity of mountain activities. Think about it. How many of you reading this got into climbing/backpacking/mountaineering because you were victims of corporate greed? (As opposed to getting into it because it was fun, relaxing, scary, beautiful, meditative, thrilling, etc.) When you buy a new piece of gear do you curse the greedy company that produced it? Here's some news: very few greedy people are making their money in the climbing industry. There's very little money here! Not compared to a thousand other industries...I have been close to the Outdoor industry since 1986 (either working in it, or having friends who worked in it) and I know that most companies producing climbing gear are small, barely solvent, and staffed by people passionate about their sport and lifestyle (and giving up the opportunity to make more money elsewhere in order to stay). Sure, competition between companies exists. Advances in technology and thinking lead to new designs. Everyone strives to be the best they can, and create the best they can create. But greed is hardly the basis. Other than a couple of notable exceptions, the CEOs of Outdoor and Climbing companies are driving four year old Subaru wagons, not BMWs.

I agree with lots of others who've posted here: share the mountains with everyone, spread the philosophy of conservation and respect towards the natural environment, and if you enjoy solitude, go where no people are.

[Dru]

Hey DLando, 4 year old Subarus are fuckin' pricy in case you didn't notice!!!

(14 year old Tercel that smokes more than me, Erik and Caveman combined).

[dlando]

Dru

Point taken...though for some reason I don't think of a Subaru as the greed-induced corporate climber's vehicle of choice.

In fact I have no idea how much a 4-year old Subaru costs; my '86 4-Runner (with 235,000 miles) still gets me to the mountains!

[Cpt.Caveman]

I recently purchased a Pacer in Cali===> you know the one that looks like a fish tank

It is hot pink with shiny chrome bumpers too. I think I am gonna get fuzzy dice and some curb feelers with some spoked rims for it. Do you think that is acceptable guys?

[Dru]

Capt. you should get it lowered, chopped and install some of those pimplights underneath. Get a chain around the license plate and a form fitted velvet dashboard. Chicks dig it! Next best thing to an El Camino!!

[Cpt.Caveman]

Good ideas Dru! I am also gonna get a chain link steering wheel with some Zebra striped seat covers too. I need the supertint with some type of logo painted on the back window... How about "Phat Crack" ?!

[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 06-13-2001).]

[pope]

Had a great idea to make a few bucks. You know how it's way easier to climb a sport climb of a given grade than one where you've got to fiddle in the gear? You know how most people will tell you they can climb a certain grade of trad climb, and a different (higher) grade of sport climb? I've always hypothesized that this is one of the big attractions of sport climbing....we all get a little ego stroke when we easily snag those big numbers.

Anyway, here's what I though I'd do. First, I'd find some chossy cliff that nobody cares much about, close to an urban center. Then I'd bolt the snot out of it, maybe even chip a few holds, glue a few buckets in the name of stabilization, etc., just to create controversy (free advertising). Finally, I'd write a guidebook in which every climb is grossly over graded. What do you think?

Here's the brilliant part: Because the grades are soft, people would show up in mobs to climb the big numbers and get the ego stroke we all so desperately need. Because the routes are nearly impossible to distinguish (but for total bolt count, and relative position in the grid), one would either have to refer to the routes as "that 27-bolt climb" or "sixth bolt ladder from the left"....or (this is the really cute part) THEY'D HAVE TO BUY MY GUIDE!!!! My guide would provide the service of giving names to these bolt lines, as well as confirming in print that everybody at the cliff is on a 5.12 (even if they happen to be combing their hair or miming in the middle of the pitch).

What do you think? Am I greedy? More importantly, has this scheme been tried yet, say along one of our major, even-numbered interstates?

[pope]

Pope,

Where is this new crag? How can I get a hold of your guide? Sounds like it's going to be the summer to "send". Allez!

[AlpineK]

I think you should only rate your climbing ability by the hardest offwidth you can lead.

I'm happy with the exit 38 and Frenchy Couloir. The trad areas used to be jammed on the weekend. Now it's different.

[z]

You're being facetious! Nice one...

***Kill the white people...but buy my record first...***

[pope]

Alpine K,

There certainly is a shiny side to this coin!

[Alpine_Tom]

I'm in awe, Pope! Are you in Business School? This sounds like a perfect MBA thesis!

[mattp]

Pope -

Your mocking of Brian's effort is certainly in some measure justified. However, I hope you and everyone else who climbs around Western Washington recognize that even though the motivation behind his publication may have been commercial, and the climbs he set up may in some measure lack style and aesthetics, Brian is the single person most responsible for creating a very successful climbing area safely enjoyed by thousands of people. Not only were the crags set up to be user friendly in the new sport tradition, but consideration was given to how to reduce impact on the neighbors and other recreational users and Brian was particularly active in gaining the involvement of other groups, including boy scout troops and the access fund, and in working with the land managers. In addition, I find it admirable that a guy who climbs 5.hard spent so much effort to develop 5.easy routes that can be enjoyed by climbers who aren't as good as he is. While he is not the only one who set routes, built trails or worked with the North Bend area bureaucrats, Mr. Burdo deserves a great deal of credit and if anybody deserves to "cash in" on the place, it is him. There are other guidebook authors, just as commercially motivated (or more so), who have not given nearly so much of themselves.

-Matt Perkins

[Peter_Puget]

As much as I hate the personalization of arguments on this bulletin board I feel I must respond to MattPs posting. I do not claim to know BB’s personal motivations and thus cannot say that he has “given of himself” but find the supporting evidence MattP provided equivocal at best and actually counter to his thesis. From my perspective, there is nothing wrong with commercial inspiration for climbing new routes - especially when they benefit us all. I do find BB claims of first ascents when there were clear signs of prior activity including bolts and obviously cleaned sections a bit overboard and his “Rhinotopia deal” self-servingly obnoxious. What can and should be judged is the current and potential impact his “actions” have had or have the potential to have in WA.

1. Will the extensive development of these crags limit development at other areas?

2. Have the practices of bolting (and chipping) anything and everything to create more routes in order to make a more commercially viable area lead to an environmentally destructive ethos to pervade climbing that will lead to problems elsewhere?

3. What is the fallout of underrating routes to make them more attractive to consumers?

The answers to all of these questions and clearly and unequivocally negative.

 

[Peter_Puget]

Well the simple answer is that you don’t have to either be a sport climber or a trad climber – it’s not an either/or choice. In the past I have actually argued against Pope’s derisive comments regarding sport climbers and his I believe naïve belief in the “Traditional” tradition. I have never argued against sport climbing or bolts in general. Neither did I argue against a “commercial motivation.” I also never claimed BB to be a particularly effective merchant. What I did postulate was that many of BBs actions have been actually and potentially producing negative effects. You say you do not see what the big bolting debate is over? It’s a simple as pie – some people like bolting some find it offensive. Surely you don’t have to fully appreciate each sides position to understand that there is a conflict and that the conflict can be resolved in ways that are detrimental to the sport. Here are a few items that might lead you to conclude that there is a conflict worth taking notice of:

1. Virtually all climbing advocacy groups have written positions regarding bolting.

1. The Federal Government tried to ban bolts in wilderness areas.

1. Bolts are banned in many areas by land managers.

1. The never ending and hot tempered diatribes on this site.

Exit 38 and Little Si were in fact late comers to sport climbing in WA. Surely Index had many sport routes put up in the “modern style” since the early 80s. Isn’t Monkey Lip at Castle essentially a sport route? What about Rattlesnake Rock. (Leavenworth) It’s not a question of Sport or Trad. It’s not a question of “How popular it is.” No one has ever questioned Si/38’s popularity. In fact it is this very popularity that is the problem. MattP writes that, and perhaps I am putting words in his mouth, he does not think the rascally behavior at 38 will affect climbing at Index. To that I would simply say that it already has affected the State Parks Department’s response to climbing at Steamboat Rock State Park.(Banks Lake) After seeing what happened along the I90 corridor the Parks Department was actively discouraging route development there and prohibiting it in some areas. From my perspective it is hubris to assume a benign future for regulation at Index. But the problem goes further than Index or Banks Lake: what about that cliff that is going to be discovered 3 years from now? MattP if you as a climber consider 38 an eyesore, then can you imagine how others might view it? And isn’t their viewpoint worthy of consideration when defining what is acceptable behavior?

 

[mattp]

Mr. Puget: I'm not saying everything about Exit 38 is positive for the sport, and I'm not suggesting that events at North Bend climbing areas don't impact land management policies elsewhere, but I do believe that the North Bend development effort can be cited as an example of how climbers and the Access Fund can work with land managers to solve or prevent problems. For example: (1) none (or few) of the routes on World Wall I top out because of the manager's concern for rare plants growing on top of the crag; (2) at the request of the same land manager, Brian chose not to publish his climb or climbs on the main cliffs of Mt. Si; (3) the location of Exit 38 was selected in large part because it could accommodate crowds without causing traffic and parking problems; and (4) there are numerous other issues on which efforts were made to address concerns raised by the land managers and the neighboring property owners. In this respect, my guess is that the State Parks are more alarmed about what has taken place at Vantage than they are about what they've seen at North Bend, but in both cases they have certainly seen that where there is a sport climbing area, there will be lots of climbers, cars and dogs. They also know that some of those climbers and their dogs and may be their cars as well will be inconsiderate and perhaps even offensive, whether trad or sport climbers.

I am unclear about your last comment/question: "if you as a climber consider 38 an eyesore, then can you imagine how others might view it? And isn't their viewpoint worthy of consideration when defining what is acceptable behavior?" My last post concluded that I believe there is room for many different approaches - and that Index, Washington Pass, and Exit 38 can co-exist. To those who think Exit 38 is an abomination, I say: don't go there and thank god that most of the people who climb there will never expend the energy to hike even as far as Snow Creek Wall, let alone Prussik Peak, so there is at least some inherent limit to the tendency for such climbing styles to take hold everywhere. To those who think it represents divine perfection, I say: get a grip. To those non-climbers who think bolts are an abomination, I say: lets look at what the impacts truly are - I'm open to discussion and I hope you are. All of us will probably agree that we are experiencing a boom in the sport and there are access and environmental issues that must be addressed. The question is one of balance. To me, "acceptable behavior" means (1) respecting other's, (2)minimizing damage to the climbing environment, (3) minimizing impact upon neighbors or other area users (see #1), and (4) climbing safely.

[This message has been edited by mattp (edited 06-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by mattp (edited 06-20-2001).]

[Peter_Puget]

38/Si is not a model that should be repeated in Wa. Unfortunately BB got involved as a person and this tends to distract from any argument; however, this is a special case because BB has explicitly acted in certain ways as a response to potential profits and has been a self promoter. These actions are indeed inextricably linked to the 38/Si saga and were brought up by your brief hagiography of BB. Certainly knowing BB and those active in the J-tree government-climber talks, I can say unequivocally that more time energy and strategy was put forth in those talks than up here. I think its best to leave BB out of our discussion in the future.

The examples in your post are all cases where the land manager in essence commanded climbers limit their activities. The fact that climbers agreed to such limitations seems no more commendable than stopping at a red light. With regard to 38’s location - it was chosen because it was there! Not for any reasons involving parking and impact. I do notice that you did not directly address my one point related to Banks Lake where a clear and unequivocal causal relationship exists between development at 38 and a land manager reacting badly to it. The land manager may in fact be more offended by Vantage my point was that 38 was sited specifically as his motivation.

I have never said that 38/Si is an abomination. I never said anything about the enjoy ability of the routes. I never said anything about sport climbers being wusses. I never said anything about the guide.

I am stating (probably not as emphatically or cogently as I would like) that the way routes were developed at 38/Si has and will continue to have a negative impact on climbing in WA. By the way, I agreeVantage has contributed to the problem as well. I did not mention it because 38 was our subject but would say that the place names ‘38’ and ‘Vantage’ could be used interchangeably with virtually no impact on the underlying logic. My three rhetorical questions and their implied conclusions remain unrebutted. In fact I do not believe it is possible to successfully do so. Whether the land managers and Brian are the best of buddies is not germane to my argument and I never questioned it. What concerns me is:

1 As the issue with the Banks Lake manager illustrates, with the pattern being set twice only a foolish land manager would not be concerned about climber impact if there is climbing on his/her land. Are we trading a silk purse for a pig’s ear?

2 Si and 38 lead to public acceptance of bolting and a sport ethos divorced from any sort of connection to the rest of climbing. Public acceptance and enjoyment of 38 style routes has been used to justify rebolting of routes at Index and Leavenworth. The creation of over bolted routes in Leavenworth by 38/Si developers (ie bolt at your feet, one at your waist and one that your clipping.) Existing routes at the Fun Forest have been sport bolted. This crag 40ft high has for years been a premier TRing crag and virtually all the routes have been lead via traditional style. Surely such behavior violates your rules describing what constitutes acceptable behavior. 38 and Si have been breeding grounds of such behavior.

Finally, what I meant by my final question/comment was to suggest that non climbers will have a much higher probability of being offended by what you consider an eyesore than your average climber and that by not considering this reaction we are opening climbing up to greater regulation and restriction. In short we are being irresponsible. Remember climbing does not exist in a vacuum- there are organized groups actively campaigning against bolts on public lands and individuals such as one Index local who hates climbers and actively campaigns against climbing at the Town Walls. Climbers seem to be giving their antagonists the rope with which they will be hung.

As a side bar, Matt isn’t it amazing that we have gone so long without hearing “Donna is hot”? I fully agree with you that the "boom in the sport [has resulted in] access and environmental issues that must be addressed"

 

[pope]

I have no knowledge of who wrote a guide to that abortion of a cliff, and I don't care. There probably isn't that much money to be made...I'm just being a wise acre. As noted above, the development of Exit 38 has had a positive, purifying effect on the environment around MY favorite cliffs; fewer people, less lycra, etc. On the other hand, we're now looking at a generation of climbers who think bolts BELONG at the cliffs, just like heather and pinecones. These guys grew up with bolts and sport cliffs, and when they visit Castle Rock, they obviously miss seeing them. They probably think the Castle looks naked without them, and next thing you know, the theory that Exit 38 keeps the rabble out of "trad" areas seems incorrect. They come around eventually, and they come with the Bosch.