Ice Climbing Ethics

[ryland_moore]

So, this morning while climbing Crown Jewel in the Gorge, there was a party of two from Portland who came, racked up, and started climbing the first pitch while we were heading up the second pitch. Being in the direct line of fire while we were climbing, I was worried that if we knocked down some ice on the leader, we could cause a severe accident. Being that me and my partners climb ice several times a year and can lead up to WI 5, we know how to read ice and take care not to knock down ice unnecessarily. To make a long story short, after we topped out and began to rappel, my partner rapped past the other team, now leading the second pitch. When he was almost down to the anchors of the top of the first pitch, the leader above knocked down a huge chunk of ice about the size of a small microwave. He yelled ice but it was greatly muffled by the wind (I heard it as he was only 15 feet from the top where I was waiting to rap). My partner was only 15 ft. above the first pitch, so the ice fell over 100 feet before smashing my partner in the helmet, chest, and left arm.

 

He was seriously injured and very lucky that the ice didn't hit him on his brake hand or knock him out or cut the ropes, where he would surely have fallen to his death.

 

We thought he fractured his wrist and were able to get him on rappel so he could lower himself to the ground albeit without the use of his left arm.

 

I've been climbing ice since 1999 and rock climbing since 1992 and was the least experienced of the 3 of us. I have always known it to never climb below someone on ice or climb on the other side, which these two did not do. Does this not seem like an extremely poor call in judgement, ice climbing ethics, and overall lack of common sense? Plus the "leader" brought out a guy who seemed to barely have been on ice, just by watching his technique and pick placement. I am not picking on a guy with less skills here, but making the point that the more experienced climber should have known not to climb until we were down and put his partner in a dangerous position without the newbie even knowing he was in one.

 

I think the guy's name was Jonathan and he drove a red Subaru with stickers from New Hampshire but lives in Portland. Anyone know him? My partner wants to kick his ass! I also write the details of this person, becasue if he is on this board, he needs to learn a serious lesson here, and for those of you on this board who may receive a pm from him to climb, you will know a little bit more about his "ethics" and safety issues other than I climb this grade and have done these routes.....

 

My partner went straight to the hospital and got an X-Ray which came back negative on the fracture, but does have a "severe hemotoma" on his left forearm that may have to be drained on Tuesday if the swelling does not go down, and a bruised chest. Plus this asshole screwed up our plans to actually climb some better and more challenging lines near Ainsworth later that day. It put a damper on an overall amazing day, all from a lack of consideration, safety, and not only putting us in danger, but he and his partner.

 

Am I wrong to get mad or do I have reason to be upset?

 

I am not saying that the ice falling was this guy's fault, as ice comes down when we least expect it. I am saying that this guy should have never started climbing beneath us, because we could have severely hurt him or his partner and by him pushing on the climb, inadvertently knocked ice off which could have easily killed my partner if the ice fell a few inches closer to his head. I see this as one of the worst examples of mentoring and lacvk of climbing ability I've ever experience, and that is even compared to the gumby situation that occurred on Hood several years ago (that I wrote the Climbing article on, for those of you who've been reading cc.com that long ago to remember....)

 

Sorry for the rant, but I would like the group's opinion. And I may just be hot-tempered and wound up right now as a 50ft. Hemlock just crashed through my fence and my neighbors in my back yard and instead of climbing tomorrow, I need to work on neighbor relations and get the chainsaw out to cut it up and explain why their dogs can no longer hang out in the back yard without a fence.....

[Cobra_Commander]

Are you sure he was not from France?

[Jason_Martin]

Ryland,

 

I have mixed feelings about your story.

 

The guy put himself and his less knowledgable partner into harms way by climbing beneath you. I wonder if you guys had a conversation about this when the guy showed up? I also wonder if you could read the inexperience below from above...?

 

I think its clear that you guys were more experienced climbers, yet you made a choice to rappel into a situation where you'd be below the other guys. It is my feeling that though the inexperienced party may have been a danger to themselves, you guys made a choice which made them a danger to you.

 

I understand that it would have sucked to wait for them to top out before rappelling, but perhaps that would have been the better choice. I think your partner's wish to "kick the guy's ass" is a little over the top. Unfortunately, on ice sometimes other parties must be thought of as objective danger...especially inexperienced parties...

 

Jason

[ryland_moore]

Thanks Jason for your comments. Yes, we may have played a role in this by deciding to rap. One of my partners knew right off who would be more experienced just by looking at the two on the ground. We never talked to them until we were rapping because they did not get to the top of the first pitch until we were already up climbing the second. The only time I talked to the guy was at the top when I was rapping off. I guess the newbie also got an earful from my partner, whether warranted or not, at the belay on top of the first pitch to let him know what he thought of his partner.

 

Usually, accidents do not occur from one incident, and this may be the case here. We did not know where on the route they were when rapping the second pitch, could not call down to them in 45-60 mph winds, and wanted to get down as fast as we could because of the winds.

 

Would you ever climb directly below someone on an ice route?

[goatboy]

I wonder if this thread is about ethics, really, or judgment.

 

When I saw "ethics" I imagined it having to do with style of ascent, using fixed gear, perhaps damaging trees to rap off, that sort of conversation.

 

What it appears to be about is judgment -- did people make choices that wound up in injury.

 

I suppose the idea of taking apparent novices climbing can wind up as an ethical decision, however, especially when an injury results.

 

My thoughts on your question:

 

Sorry your buddy got hurt. Glad he's alive! Would your take on the accident be any different if it was two expert climbers (or a bad-ass free soloist) who dislodged the piece that hit your buddy? Would your buddy want to beat them up, too?

 

I ask because as Jason mentioned, you guys chose to rap down below them, having already assessed that they were less experienced than you. I understand the need to get out of 40 MPH winds, but in the end, which was more dangerous -- the wind, or getting creamed by a huge block of ice?

 

Looking back at it, would you do anything differently in the future? What would you recommend the other party do differently?

 

Again, best wishes for you and your buddy in recovery. Injuries suck, but we often learn more from them than we do by getting away with things....

[Alpinfox]

Did you try to communicate with the lower party while you were rapping past them?

 

"Hey dude, we are going to be directly below you for a few minutes while we rap off; could you wait before climbing again so that we don't get creamed by some ice?"

 

The fact is that the easily accessible ice resources in the PNW are so limited that crowding, and therefore these sorts of accidents, are very likely. It's only with good communication and judgement by all parties that they will be avoided.

 

Your safety is your responsibility (not some supposedly inexperienced other party's). You need to speak up if you don't feel safe.

[jmckay]

Alpine Spam's

Redneck Rules for Ice Climbing

 

 

 

1. If you climb under somebody and you get whacked with ice suck it up, cause you were in the wrong. There are periods of opportunity where you could sneak around someone or climb up a pitch to get out of the way, use them quickly and wisely, leave room for error. The Weeping Wall and Louise Falls are classic examples. Nobody likes dropping ice on other people so it is the passing climbers responsibility to stay out of harms way.

2. Passing somebody don't make you King of the hill. However like chess it does give you better position. Of course you have to respect the rights of the other players but the ice is in your control. The Rockies is a popular place and not really as big as we let on. Most climbs can be managed with more than one party if people work together.

3. Don't cater to guided groups. They are normally a pretty good bunch to have around. The guides know what they are doing and will not set up under popular multi pitch areas. They should always be early enough or with a small enough party that they can work around you.

4. Don't let the Ice know your scared. Art of War "know yourself, know your enemy and you'll never lose a battle" Like a good pony, ice can smell fear. Nervous apprehension is good for the soul as long as it does not affect the mind and body. Musashi said it best in the Book of Five Rings when describing the state of ones mind in combat ..." when practising martial arts ( Ice Climbing) ...let there be no change at all--with the mind open and direct... neither tense nor lax.. centring the mind so there is no imbalance...Even when the mind is still it is not still, even when the mind is hurried it is not hurried... the mind is not dragged by the body, the body is not dragged by the mind....even if superficially weak hearted be inwardly strong hearted and do not let others see into your mind..."

5. Never spit or swear in front of women or children. It is just plain bad manners. It shows a poor upbringing and a complete disrespect for all the good things your parents tried to teach you.

6. If you know you are slow start stupidly early. This give you the best chance of not having some hot dog solo up past you, set up, then lead above you. Gives plenty of lead and control of your line. It is nice to be coming off when the afternoon shift arrives.

7. Defend the defenceless. Help out if you think someone needs it. This is a tough one because you can feel a little intrusive. If you see an accident in the making I guess you have to step in because you will have to deal with the aftermath. Blatant errors are acceptable, nit picking is unacceptable.

8. Smoke em if yeh got em!

[ryland_moore]

To answer some of the questions:

We were not climbing below anyone, they started the route while we were on the second pitch. My buddy was hit while rapping past the leader of the second party as he had rapped to the right sie of the flow to avoid knocking any ice dowen on the belayer of the second party when he was hit.

 

We were unable to communicate with the group as they were too far below us and the wind would not carry our voices. We did not know if they were waiting at the top of the first pitch or not when we rapped. Once the first person rapped, the second went. You could not see down to the top of the first pitch until you rapped about 75 feet down. There was no way to communicate back up at the top that someone was leading the second pitch and so you should wait until they were finished. As my buddy rapped, he passed the guy leading up the second pitch and therefore had to continue down as fast as he could. I do not know if my buddy said anything to him on the way down, but there is no way the guy was going to stop climbing while on lead. Both people were not inexperienced, only the guy seconding. The leader appeared to be decent. I would not feel any differently if they were two expert climbers or a soloist. The fact of the matter is the party should have waited for us to finish the climb, knowing that we would be rapping soon and then get on the ice. I still feel they put themselves in danger, and us in danger. This would have all been avoided if the second party had waited and been patient.

 

I should add that a party of two from cc.com showed up in the morning as we were about to begin. Seeing us there, they decided to wait and go elsewhere.

[JosephH]

Ryland,

 

As others have mentioned this really isn't about ethics so much as common sense, courtesy, and logistics/safety. It is also an extension of some of the long conversations that have taken place here about people hopping on routes right behind other folks at Smith. But, rock or ice, the bottom line is any time you place yourself under another another party for any reason you are conciously deciding to shoulder risk and have to accept the responsibility for any consequences. Not freezing near to death while waiting for the other party to get up may have seemed like a good reason for such a decision at the time, but from the result it's pretty clear that maybe it wasn't. Also, in this case both parties in turn made that same decision, to place themselves under the other party. You guys obviously had less choices in the matter as they [dubiously] started up behind you, but once that was a reality the burden of judgment passed on to you guys relative to the rappel. I certainly wouldn't want to be hunkered down up there waiting in that wind, but that was probably the best option in this instance. The other option, on waiting for the other team's leader to top out, was you could have tried to convince them to wait on bringing up the second while you rapped out - either way someone was going to have to chill on ice and freeze their asses off. However a cessation of active climbing occurs, you need to secure one, otherwise you risk operating under an active climber at your own peril. I know that might sound a little harsh and brutal under the circumstances, but it does unfortunately reflect the true risks and realities of climbing. Year in, year out many people around the world simply don't survive similar accidents and so in this case your friend is lucky and I suspect both parties learned some valuable if hard and painful lessons...

[Gary_Yngve]

If you climb under someone, you also put an unfair burden on the person above, as the person above is now aware that they can unintentially cause you grave harm.

 

Alpine Spam's

Redneck Rules for Ice Climbing

1. If you climb under somebody and you get whacked with ice suck it up, cause you were in the wrong. There are periods of opportunity where you could sneak around someone or climb up a pitch to get out of the way, use them quickly and wisely, leave room for error. The Weeping Wall and Louise Falls are classic examples. Nobody likes dropping ice on other people so it is the passing climbers responsibility to stay out of harms way.

[BillA]

You could have walked off. I've done it.

[ryland_moore]

Good points all around. Kepp 'em coming.

[Jeepenfool95]

Ok I sorta jumped to the end, so that I could put in my two cents. However, I have strong feelings about this subject, as I stopped climbing wiht my former Ice climbing partner, becuase I didn't feel he was respectful to other climbers. We, were an odd pair, he was very experienced, world class, and I'm new to the sport, but in his words "a natural ice climber." So we complimented each other well.

 

Last year we were climbing in Lee Vining California, and my partner, showed me his worst side. He was climbing a route other folks were setting up TR's on, and blowing off other climbers that he said he would help. All in all, just being a total ass to anyone that couldn't climb WI5 smooth and easy.

 

I love ice climbing, in fact I may like it more than rock, but I think safety is the single most important aspect of the sport. Part of safety is being repsectful to other climbers, like not climbing on someone else line. A good example is the folks who died on Mt. Hood not to long ago, their lack of patience cost peoples lives. I know its frustrating to get to a route, and someone is on it already, you'll just have to wake up earlier next time. Experienced climbers have the responsibility of looking out and respecting new climbers, no matter what kind of asshole they are. New climbers have the responsibility of asking questions and ensuring that what they are doing is both safe, and respectful of other climbers.

 

I stopped climbing with my former partner, becuase he was a total ass on the ice, and regretably he passed away over the last summer, and I'll never get to work out our issues. It was his recklessness and lack of respect for others that partially lead to his untimely passing. So, just like walking away from a route when the conditions are bad, I'll walk away form a climb where the climbers are not willing to respect other climbers, it just as dangerouse.

 

I'll put the soap box away now, Thank you.

[Jason_Martin]

If you climb under someone, you also put an unfair burden on the person above, as the person above is now aware that they can unintentially cause you grave harm.

 

I do agree with this, but unfortunately not everyone understands this.

 

But I also agree with the "Redneck Rule" that states that as soon as you put yourself underneath someone you are ultimately responsible for the consequences. In a previous post, you asked if I would climb under someone else. The answer is no, not unless I felt that I could mitigate the danger somehow. The same for if I were to rappel into a position where I would then be underneath someone.

 

Now back to the first part about the etiquette of climbing beneath someone. In some cases it may be unintentionally rude to put this burden on another team. However, there are numerous long routes wherein one may not even be aware that there is another team on the route because they are so high. This brings us back to the idea that whoever is beneath must be aware of the potential consequences. The bottom team -- whether rappelling or climbing -- must be responsible for themselves.

 

Making a comment to a leader who has put his team into a compromising position might be worthwhile. Unfortunately though, very few climbers are willing to listen to constructive criticism from other climbers while on a route.

 

Jason

[catbirdseat]

This incident points out how use of the autoblock for rappelling if often a good idea. If ice comes down and smacks your brake hand, it would be good to have that autoblock there, as a back up.

 

It was very lucky indeed that Ryland's partner wasn't hit on his brake hand.

[Dru]

Does anyone have photo of the route?

 

On a broad sort of climb like Weeping Wall or Gibraltar you can have 4 or so parties climbing all at once and no one below anyone. Is this a case where they could have picked the other side and they chose to climb under you,or a case where they had no choice?

 

As mentioned - high winds, weather changing - puts the desire in ppls heads to "get this thing in now while we can" and false sense of urgency leads to higher acceptance level for risk.

[ryland_moore]

Dru, the route is fairly wide and they could have chosen a line to the right, but did not do this I assume becasue the right side is more difficult and there are no fixed anchors like on the left side for the top of the first pitch at 30 meters.

 

Also, catbird, I put a prussik on my rap line below my breakhand, but was having trouble with it jamming as the twin ropes were really iced up....

[Dru]

I hope your partner gets better soon. Sounds silly to say "he was lucky" when he is seriously injured, but sounds like this could easily have been much, much worse.

[ryland_moore]

Dru, pic of the route is in another tread under ice in the Gorge. It is called Crown Jewel, 90m WI3.

[lummox]

sorry your buddy got whacked.

[bonathanjarrett]

Ryland,

 

I was the leader of the party behind you on saturday, and I was the one who accidentally hit your partner. I am extremely sorry that he was injured, and am willing to make it up to him in whatever way is reasonable. I take full responsibility for my actions.

 

However I would like to explain to everyone who cares to hear it what I was thinking and to try and curb the firestorm of opinion being passed back and forth on this thread.

 

First: I started up CJ as the leader was finishing the second pitch. I took note of the fact that the climb trended to the far left on the first pitch and then to the far right on the second. I considered that any ice being knocked down by the seconders would not be a serious objective danger while I was leading and that this danger would be gone when my partner started up.

 

Second:

I did not consider that your party would rap back down the route. One can either rap the route or traverse out of the bowl and descend via the gully. In my experience, one does not rap the route they just climbed (particularly ice) if there are others starting up and there is another reasonable descent option.

 

Third: My partner is relatively new to ice climbing. However he is a strong and skilled rock climber and aware of all the potential dangers that exist in the mountains or at the roadside crag. We had the discussion at the base before starting up, and he was comfortable with the minor risks incurred by following you guys.

 

Fourth: We waiting for a short time at the first belay station, to see if you were going to rap down. You did not come down in what I considered to be a timely manner, so I figured that you had gone to the descent gully. You dropped your ropes after I had started up, and I was therefore mildly commited to finishing. I climbed as gently as I could and yelled as loudly as I could everytime I knocked anything off, because I was super aware that there were people below me.

 

So I sincerely apologize to your partner. We all make choices in the mountains based on the best information that we have, and unfortunately we have to live with them. I am thankful that he was not injured more severely. Please have him PM me, so that I can chat with him more privately about this matter. I hope that I have explained my thoughts on that day well enough.

[MisterMo]

I've never seen the climb in question but I'd like to weigh in:

When another party chose to climb beneath you they assumed the consequences of doing so, however wise or unwise that choice might be. It appears they were fortunate.

When your party, in turn chose to rappel past them to a position beneath them you assumed the same consequences. It appears that your partner was not nearly so fortunate. I'm making assumptions here that you had the options of 1) descending by another route, or 2)waiting a reasonable period for the hazard to pass.

 

The very closest I ever came to getting killed climbing was due to following an unknown party on what we all thought was solid rock. Just imagine my suprise when the sky rained boulders.... ......a very cheap lesson since I was totally unscathed. I wouldn't even think of going under another party on ice without some horribly compelling reason.

[RocNoggin]

bonathanjarrett,

 

kudos to you for stepping up and making yourself known. regardless of what happened on the climb it takes a pretty upright and outstanding person to come forward and face criticism and possibly blame. too often people dont make themselves accountable for their actions, whether they were right or wrong.

[Winter]

So whatever happened here? Cage match? Ass kicking?

 

The guys shows up and all the threats and tough talk fade into the background? 3 pm at the teeter totter!!

[iain]

yeah! internet fight!