Adding a bolt at Midnight Rock

[mattp]

Pope, I'm not sure what your point is, calling this discussion "weak," but would you rather:

 

(1) nobody EVER considered adding or moving a bolt even if in fact it turns out that the original placement was such that everyone or most who climb the route agree that the bolt is in the WRONG place?

 

(2) somebody who considers doing so sould skip bringing the topic up on this board because they will only get called names?

 

I don't know any more about the history of the route than has appeared here, and I haven't formulated any strong opinion about adding, moving, replacing, or leaving the bolt alone but where you say that talking about this bolt will lead to chipping holds in the route I don't get it -- has anybody, anywhere in this thread, talked about chipping holds?

 

Weak would be for us to maintain a 20 year old "mistake" (if indeed we end up concluding that was what it was) because you worry that correcting it will lead to chipping it, or some other guy fears that correcting that mistake will lead to the proliferation of grid-bolting everywhere.

[eric8]

well for since I'm under 30 and actually enjoy sport climbing though I mostly climb trad all throw my 2 cents in even though I have only been to midnight once and didn't climb that route.

 

How good are the actual bolts that are present? It seems to me that the quick easy keep everyone happy solution would be to add a long sling to the bolts as it appears there was in the 80's.

 

However, the bolt is probably now 20 years old. I guess Erikn could speak to wether or not it needs to be replaced. If it does then placing a new one better position seems justified. I remeber talking to Jens about climbing at rattlesnake rock and he talked about climbing zweebes (sp?) the 12b to the right of rock n rattle. I remarked that it looked hard and scary with a bunch of rusty quarter inchers he than said that 8 or 10 years ago those bolts weren't rusty. It seems to me that you can't talk about doing the route in the style of the fa if the fixed gear has degenerated over time. but then again the exigisting bolt may be perfectly find

 

so only knowing what i have read here and never having seen the route, (not a very good position) I would say if the bolt is old and manky replace it to a new improved location with something of the stainless steel variety. if its find then just add a sling to it for now.

[pope]

I would say if the bolt is old and manky replace it to a new improved location with something of the stainless steel variety.

 

Completely reasonable.

[pope]

Matt,

 

I never said the discussion is weak. I never said moving the bolt is weak. In all caps, you will read the words "ADDITIONAL BOLTS".

[bwrts]

mr. perkins,

I am 29 and like to sport climb and I think the one time I observed the route is sufficient to state my opinion regarding adding the bolt. Also, I feel all opinions should recieve equal weight. Like TimL implies...leave the challenge for those who want to climb the route like it is now.

EDIT:

However, it is a rock and I, nor Tim own it so, I guess whatever will be done, will be done. Afterall, it is just a route on a little cliff in the tumwater....

 

 

Edited September 4, 2005 by bwrts

[Matt_Anderson]

in the interest of full disclosure, someone emailed me and said:

 

hey yall, just want to share my recollection of your day on spm, since i was there, watching from the other routes dustin and i climbed that day.

 

yall were fully, completely, utterly gripped. . . . you went up there to do rotc, but after spending most of the day on spm, i think you didn't even bother.

 

that's my memory. maybe, like a fishing tale, the terror on your faces has grown over the years; but, certainly, there was terror.

 

I suppose to the extent that my opinion is based on how much fear I remember, that could be relevant. Really, my opinion is the same, how scared I get on a route doesn't really justify me putting a bolt on a Croft route. If croft clipped a sling, then moving it is probably the right answer. If a hold broke, same deal.

 

If anyone reading this is wondering why the hell this is relevant they can read my orig post, or (probably better) ignore it, I'm just a sucker for full disclosure. . .

[RuMR]

i was responding to your comment about going out and unilaterally chopping someone's work without any kind of discussion either with him/her or the climbing in general...this is exactly what ken nichols did...if you do it at one area, why not another? In fact, why don't you hop in your car and mosey on down to smith...i hear they have lotsa bolts there...have fun, bro!!!

[RuMR]

why were those posts chopped??? THat is bullshit!!!!

 

Hey RMUR slow down boy! I split the thread off.

Edited September 6, 2005 by Peter_Puget

[RuMR]

...counting counting counting...

 

t minus 30 seconds until chopping...

[TrogdortheBurninator]

post moved

Edited September 6, 2005 by TrogdortheBurninator

[archenemy]

Hey look

a bolting debate!

[RuMR]

quit rubbernecking...

[Geek_the_Greek]

I'm not sure if this discussion has been moved to Spray or to another forum, and am not interested enough to dig for it.

 

In any case, all I was after was that with this type of discussion it's totally unrealistic to expect any consensus, or to determine the true feelings of the climbing community. The fact is, people posting here like discussing climbing on the internet, and have to be a bit thick-skinned about it. But at the end of the day, you have perhaps determined the RANGE of opinions (or maybe just a random sample of the range), but not the average, or any measure of spread. The fact that more people climb safer routes (that's a guess, but do you disagree?) suggests that adding bolts to many routes would have popular appeal. I'm not saying that makes it the right thing to do, but it would make it the democratic thing to do.

 

My point is that I don't feel that this discussion brought us any closer to understanding the views of "the climbing community" than we knew already - some people are into adding bolts to make scary routes safer, and some people are not into it at all. Whether or not they care to argue stubbornly about it on the internet is irrelevant.

 

FWIW, I'm 29 (for another month or so), and I like sport and trad climbing, among other things. Apparently I also like arguing on the web under a false name, but I don't think any of those things makes my opinion on climbing routes more valid than that of any other climbers.

[JosephH]

The fact that more people climb safer routes (that's a guess, but do you disagree?) suggests that adding bolts to many routes would have popular appeal. I'm not saying that makes it the right thing to do, but it would make it the democratic thing to do.

 

Geek, I would completely agree with that assertion and it is the exact result of gyms churning out large numbers of risk-averse, "safe" climbers. What you are suggesting is a tyranny of democracy that represents yet another step on a not so long road to the death of assumption and [self] management of risk as an base competency in climbing. You're talking about a democracy that abdicates the soul of climbing to a combination of fear, a lack of skills, and to entertainment. Unrestrained, that path will lead to the grid bolting of every [unprotected] crag over the course of coming years.

 

P.S. Moderator, I saw no cause here at all to split the thread...

[bwrts]

geek,

 

for sure we can not determine the fate of this route on the net...

 

I agree with this statement from JosephH:

 

unrestrained, the path will lead to (grid) "over-bolting" of every (unprotected) crag over the course of coming years...

and I will add this will only lead to the "DARK SIDE" and this will lead you to "HELL"

[JensHolsten]

I was just wondering...with all the worry about the bottom of SPM being scary, what the hell is up with the top! Seems miles more heady than the bottom! Does anyone know whether the climb takes the face or the crack at the top?? Sweet route!!

[soulreaper]

Amen. The bottom of the route is trivial in both difficulty and, depending on whether you try the crack or the flaky face, excitement when compared to the top. The bottom is a 5.10 move that, since the fall has been taken without dire consequences, is moderately safe and moderately well-protected. Attempting an onsight is a thrilling experience that SHOULD NOT be dumbed down with additional fixed gear.

[JosephH]

That sounds like reasonable feedback from a couple of folks who have climbed it both in the past and quite recently.

[Hummerchine]

I haved lived in Wenatchee since moving back in 1987, originally grew up here, climber for over 25 years. I go up to Midnight Rock often, good workout is to laps on ROTC solo-toproping, then give Steven's Pass Motel a shot (I'm about 50% successful on that one). It is obvious that the lower bolt is in the wrong place, I have always been curious how it got there. Best guess is that it is an aid bolt, although it seems that it would be hard to aid, unless off a hook. Which may have just answered that question! By this thread it appears that noone knows who placed those bolts. For years there was a sling on this bolt, I'm sure that's how it was lead free. The sling has been gone for many years, the bolts are old and shitty. I have been planning on replacing them for years, too lazy to drag the drill up there. My plan was to replace the upper bolt, move the lower to where it can be clipped below the roof. However, I have done little bolting, and I cannot decide the perfect spot to move it to. I would not want it to be in the way of any of the holds, and since it now is clearly in the wrong place, I would not want to botch the decision. My opinion is that the opening moves over the roof are hard 5.11 on thin loose holds, with a really bad fall. I'd give it an "R" in it's current state. Also, the lower bolt cannot even be clipped until you have climbed by it, unless you want to clip in the middle of the 5.11+ section. By the first stance you can clip the next bolt. I agree, bolts should not be added to a route, but when a bolt is clearly in the wrong place, why leave it that way forever? Ah, but I can see that simply stick clipping the lower bolt in it's current position would work fine. So I'll wait and let somebody else decide the best thing to do, at a bare minimum those bolts need replaced! By the way, I just met Jens at Little Si, he led the route as is with no stick clipping. Frigging bold and impressive! Like I said above, "R"!

---Tom Michael

[Blake]

All that talk and the bolts are still the same today. It's funny that the actual "Stevens Pass Motel" in Goldbar is located on Croft Avenue.

 

Sweet route, if I were to lead it I'd definitely put a 4' runner on the bolt first (and maybe a screamer, those things are old and rusty).

 

At the top of the crack I exited left to the last bit of "wild Traverse" but do others continue up some thin flakes edges (without any pro) straight up/right to the top?

 

 

P.S. can someone explain exactly how to get to the base of "The Sting" without rapping down? And does one really need gear to 8" for Easter overhang... or would 4 and 5 camalots be ok.

[MCash]

To get to the base of The Sting, simply traverse that low 5th ledge for the start of The Flame, but go up the Sting crack (just before you get to the handcrack pitch for The Flame). Here is the start of the traverse pitch.

 

 

I believe that is SPM overhead, I haven't climbed that one.

Edited October 15, 2007 by MCash

[Peter_Puget]

I think a #5 Camalot is not needed for Easter Overhang. 8" is way way too big for this route. By the way the Stevens Pass Motel this route was named after was located far to the east of Gold Bar...it was isolated and had parking in the back. ;-)

Edited October 15, 2007 by Peter_Puget

[Raindawg]

By the way the Stevens Pass Motel this route was named after was located far to the east of Gold Bar...it was isolated and had parking in the back. ;-)

 

And the sign in front advertised "hourly rates". In it's latter days, they had a bunch of mannequins on the roof wearing camoflage...never knew what that was about....maybe some paint-ball thang.

[eric8]

you only need a number 5 camalot if you are not comfortable running it out through the easy wide section before the belay, if you can make it through the crux okay, you should be more than fine.

[Dane]

FWIW we first did SPM in the fall of '86. I've done it several times over the years since. There was always a long sling (usually ratty) on at least one bolt..every time, and a shorter sling on the other. Memory is getting bad on that but no question the long sling on a bolt saved your brain for the rest of th climb.

 

Two cruxes on the route, clipping the bolts which was scary (one of them twice with the long sling first and then the hanger) and finishing the upper crack, which was hard.

 

I'd be in favor of replacing the 20+ year old button heads with better gear and leaving the first bolt as a stick clip.

 

But to "fix" the route most will want to add at least one bolt where you originally clipped the long sling and that means most will also want another before you can add pro in the crack. All that means is the route will be a totally different experience from how it is now.

 

How about replacing the bolts where they are now and adding a length of chain to each (short on the 1st one and long on the second) to mimic how it was originally done. That might answer both needs, safety and maintaining the history of the climb. The climber actually on the rock can then choose his own experience instead of a group on the Internet that have never been on the route.