New REI Bitch Thread

[Baltoro]

Maybe becuase something to the tune of 80% of profits go out in people's dividends. It's not like Sally and friends are down there in Kent counting their billions. First there are taxes to pay. That figure is a sales figure from the register. Say for the sake of math it's 10%. Assume than that maybe half of their after tax sales are cost of product so now it is 450mil. Assume that half of the original sales were regular price stuff so people earn a dividend on it. So 50mil is going back to members. So you've got 400mil left over to run 80+ stores, pay 7000 employees, develop new technology, both product and otherwise, have your return policy abused and build a new 400K sq.ft. warehouse on the east coast to support all those people who want to buy over there as well but shouldn't be allowed because that's not fair. REI never should have left Capitol Hill because growth is bad and/or unethical and anyways, I'm sure they'd still be doing a booming business like the rest of the flourishing retail market on Capitol Hill.

 

It is without a doubt not the most "pure" co-op structure, but it is also still in business. A co-op that is out of business can't serve it's members very well. You can argue that going out of business is better than doing what they're doing but I think that's taking it too far and your not likely to find any retailer that's going to take that high road.

 

Didn't they also have some involvment in retaining the Peshastin area for public use?

 

Support of bad rock doesn't mean that they're bad people.

[kevbone]

It's not like Sally and friends are down there in Kent counting their billions.

 

No not billions, but for sure millions. She makes $850,000 a year and the new EE’s make $7.50 an hour (if there lucky). Rei has no debt and has about $150,000,000 sitting in the bank to play with; this is because the starting pay there is $7.50 hr. Oh well. Good for Sally. I have met her and she is one of the smartest people I have ever met. Much better than Dennis. Dennis was way to cocky!

[cj001f]

Maybe becuase something to the tune of 80% of profits go out in people's dividends.

 

Support of bad rock doesn't mean that they're bad people.

 

So don't promise the fixed "dividend" I mean, rewards program. Just be honest - REI really doesn't give a fuck if the kind of people who read this website purchase products there. It's no longer their market.

 

I heard Mobutu Sese Seko was one nice dude to party with.

[kevbone]

Mobutu Sese Seko

 

Who the hell is Mobutu Sese Seko?

[knelson]

Knelson,

 

I'm not a big fan of their "Co-op" structure, but I also believe in fair criticism.

 

Your math skills leave a bit to be desired, or is it your logic skills?

 

.075 x $40,000 = $3,000, not $100 as you suggest by your analogy.

 

Your math skills are fine, but your logic and comprehension obviously don't follow suit.

 

$40,000 x 0.0025 = $100

 

REI gave 0.25% of their gross sales. Gross sales are equivalent to your salary - you know... that money you get before taxes are taken out, and you buy food, and you pay the rent, etc etc etc. The 7.5% number I quoted - and you used incorrectly - was their giving based upon their profit after taxes, cost of goods sold, expenses, etc etc etc.

 

As far as I can tell, it's a fair comparison.

[knelson]

Baltoro - Instead of assuming a bunch of numbers, why don't you look at the profit/loss statement available on the website you seemed keen on quoting. REI gave out 45% of their profit before taxes in dividends. I'm not going to waste my time correcting the rest of the numbers you put out there. Regarding growth - growth is not bad if done for the right reasons and it supports your mission. Right now, you've got a company that has changed their mission because they have to because of their growth. MEC seems to have tiptoed that tightrope well, and maintained their mission - although a few years ago it looked like they were going down the same road.

 

kevbone - looking at that same statement, they have more than that in retained earnings. More like $236 million at the end of 2005. Oh... and the unclaimed dividends? 7.2 million. Including Sally's incentive plans and company provided benefits and pension, she came away with 1.3 million for 2005.

 

They're a business. Nothing wrong with that. They'll eventually end up just like Eddie Bauer, which I heard some investment bankers just bailed out of bankruptcy. Guess REI will have some competition then!

Edited November 15, 2006 by knelson

[kevbone]

Sally told me (along with the other EE's) about 4 years ago, when she was just the CFO. That REI has about 150 mill sitting in the bank, they did not know what to do with it. Too bad for them.

[Mr_Phil]

Mobutu Sese Seko

 

Who the hell is Mobutu Sese Seko?

 

Mobutu Sese Seko

[Baltoro]

Knelson

Were you refering to this page:

 

http://www.rei.com/aboutrei/financials2005.pdf

 

The one that shows a net income of 32,726,000. That's not exactly rolling in the dough for over 1 billion in sales.

 

"Regarding growth - growth is not bad if done for the right reasons and it supports your mission. Right now, you've got a company that has changed their mission because they have to because of their growth."

 

What exactly was their mission and how is it different today?

 

cj001f

What do you mean don't promise the fixed dividend? Has it not been 10% for quite awhile?

 

Here in lies a problem if you're bringing up Mobutu Sese Seko in relation to a conversation about REI not being great anymore. Are you implying a comparison between REI and Mobutu Sese Seko? Is that a realsitic or fair because they don't do things like they used to?

[knelson]

Knelson

Were you refering to this page:

 

http://www.rei.com/aboutrei/financials2005.pdf

 

The one that shows a net income of 32,726,000. That's not exactly rolling in the dough for over 1 billion in sales.

 

I'm not following what your point is. Yeah... those are the financials I'm quoting. And yes, after everything was taken out to run the company and pay taxes, they had 32 million left over that they put away in the piggy bank and increase the retained earnings.

 

My point in bringing up the exact numbers was because the argument that is always used to show how great REI is the ol' "...look at how much money they give to outdoor causes...". I just want to point out that while yes, 2.5 million is a lot of money, it's not a lot when you look at how much money goes over their books. And all of those contributions are probably not as altruistic as you think. Pretty sure the advertising/PR folks get a say in what "grants" are allowed and which aren't.

 

"Regarding growth - growth is not bad if done for the right reasons and it supports your mission. Right now, you've got a company that has changed their mission because they have to because of their growth."

 

What exactly was their mission and how is it different today?

 

I thought their original mission statement of sorts was on their website, but now can't find it. I know I've got it quoted in a letter I wrote REI several years back... maybe I can find it. But in effect, it basically said that the co-ops purpose was to make high quality mountaineering equipment available to its members. You tell me what's changed.

 

cj001f

What do you mean don't promise the fixed dividend? Has it not been 10% for quite awhile?

 

Here in lies a problem if you're bringing up Mobutu Sese Seko in relation to a conversation about REI not being great anymore. Are you implying a comparison between REI and Mobutu Sese Seko? Is that a realsitic or fair because they don't do things like they used to?

 

I think the comment was made in reference to the "well they give money back to the community so they can't be all that bad, can they?" attitude.

[Mr_Phil]

The retained earnings is money that the coop didn't return to its members as dividend.

 

Back when I joined, 10% was a target, not an absolute, and was occasionally higher.

 

In 2005, they declared $50 mil in dividends and kept $32 mil for themselves. Why? The coop claims $0 longterm debt and $135 mil in cash and investments.

[strumpett]

Are you a member?

[enelson]

Knelson

Were you refering to this page:

 

http://www.rei.com/aboutrei/financials2005.pdf

 

The one that shows a net income of 32,726,000. That's not exactly rolling in the dough for over 1 billion in sales.

 

I'm not following what your point is. Yeah... those are the financials I'm quoting. And yes, after everything was taken out to run the company and pay taxes, they had 32 million left over that they put away in the piggy bank and increase the retained earnings.

 

My point in bringing up the exact numbers was because the argument that is always used to show how great REI is the ol' "...look at how much money they give to outdoor causes...". I just want to point out that while yes, 2.5 million is a lot of money, it's not a lot when you look at how much money goes over their books. And all of those contributions are probably not as altruistic as you think. Pretty sure the advertising/PR folks get a say in what "grants" are allowed and which aren't.

 

"Regarding growth - growth is not bad if done for the right reasons and it supports your mission. Right now, you've got a company that has changed their mission because they have to because of their growth."

 

What exactly was their mission and how is it different today?

 

I thought their original mission statement of sorts was on their website, but now can't find it. I know I've got it quoted in a letter I wrote REI several years back... maybe I can find it. But in effect, it basically said that the co-ops purpose was to make high quality mountaineering equipment available to its members. You tell me what's changed.

 

cj001f

What do you mean don't promise the fixed dividend? Has it not been 10% for quite awhile?

 

Here in lies a problem if you're bringing up Mobutu Sese Seko in relation to a conversation about REI not being great anymore. Are you implying a comparison between REI and Mobutu Sese Seko? Is that a realsitic or fair because they don't do things like they used to?

 

I think the comment was made in reference to the "well they give money back to the community so they can't be all that bad, can they?" attitude.

 

i like your name, and wanted to continue the massive quoting.

[knelson]

Knelson

Were you refering to this page:

 

http://www.rei.com/aboutrei/financials2005.pdf

 

The one that shows a net income of 32,726,000. That's not exactly rolling in the dough for over 1 billion in sales.

 

I'm not following what your point is. Yeah... those are the financials I'm quoting. And yes, after everything was taken out to run the company and pay taxes, they had 32 million left over that they put away in the piggy bank and increase the retained earnings.

 

My point in bringing up the exact numbers was because the argument that is always used to show how great REI is the ol' "...look at how much money they give to outdoor causes...". I just want to point out that while yes, 2.5 million is a lot of money, it's not a lot when you look at how much money goes over their books. And all of those contributions are probably not as altruistic as you think. Pretty sure the advertising/PR folks get a say in what "grants" are allowed and which aren't.

 

"Regarding growth - growth is not bad if done for the right reasons and it supports your mission. Right now, you've got a company that has changed their mission because they have to because of their growth."

 

What exactly was their mission and how is it different today?

 

I thought their original mission statement of sorts was on their website, but now can't find it. I know I've got it quoted in a letter I wrote REI several years back... maybe I can find it. But in effect, it basically said that the co-ops purpose was to make high quality mountaineering equipment available to its members. You tell me what's changed.

 

cj001f

What do you mean don't promise the fixed dividend? Has it not been 10% for quite awhile?

 

Here in lies a problem if you're bringing up Mobutu Sese Seko in relation to a conversation about REI not being great anymore. Are you implying a comparison between REI and Mobutu Sese Seko? Is that a realsitic or fair because they don't do things like they used to?

 

I think the comment was made in reference to the "well they give money back to the community so they can't be all that bad, can they?" attitude.

 

i like your name, and wanted to continue the massive quoting.

 

Thanks!

[SemoreJugs]

Knelson,

 

I'm not a big fan of their "Co-op" structure, but I also believe in fair criticism.

 

Your math skills leave a bit to be desired, or is it your logic skills?

 

.075 x $40,000 = $3,000, not $100 as you suggest by your analogy.

 

Your math skills are fine, but your logic and comprehension obviously don't follow suit.

 

$40,000 x 0.0025 = $100

 

REI gave 0.25% of their gross sales. Gross sales are equivalent to your salary - you know... that money you get before taxes are taken out, and you buy food, and you pay the rent, etc etc etc. The 7.5% number I quoted - and you used incorrectly - was their giving based upon their profit after taxes, cost of goods sold, expenses, etc etc etc.

 

As far as I can tell, it's a fair comparison.

 

You're right, my logic and comprehension dont follow YOUR suit. But, god-willing, I think I can help you out there.

 

Gross sales are equivalent to your salary

 

Gross profits, fine, but sales? wow. If I sell 1 widget for $100, but it costs me $99 to produce and sell that widget, that doesnt leave me $10 to donate 10% OF PROFITS to charity. I only have a dollar in my pocket (and thats assuming no taxes). How am I gonna donate $10 to charity for that widget?

 

Exerpted from Business for Dummies:

 

Gross Sales - Costs (overhead, employee pay, business losses, etc) = Gross Profits

 

Now, Gross profits - taxes on profits = Net profit

 

Gross Profit for a business is analagous to gross salary for you or me. Net profit is like Net (takehome) Pay.

 

You get back to me when you are ready for your next lesson: "How to make a logical and persuasive argument."

[cj001f]

The retained earnings is money that the coop didn't return to its members as dividend.

 

Back when I joined, 10% was a target, not an absolute, and was occasionally higher.

 

In 2005, they declared $50 mil in dividends and kept $32 mil for themselves. Why? The coop claims $0 longterm debt and $135 mil in cash and investments.

 

And sometimes the dividend was even lower than 8-10% in a bad year - one of those bad years lead to the current chairman running for the board The Dividend, as structured currently, is a rewards scheme. It's independent of profits.

[knelson]

Gross Profit for a business is analagous to gross salary for you or me. Net profit is like Net (takehome)

 

Bullshit.

 

Gross profit for a business is after the cost of goods have been taken out, along with salaries, etc - just like you educated me. Your salary (I don't believe I ever said "gross" salary,) is just that - your salary - before taxes have been taken out, before you've paid your landlord, before you've paid for food, blah blah blah.

 

Total sales is all the money that comes into a company. No taxes taken out, no cost of goods sold, no nuthin. This is how much money has crossed the books. Correct? I'm not saying this is how much money the company is going to claim taxes on or anything. This is just how much money the company brought in, neglecting all the ugliness of paying your vendors, the IRS, the state, blah blah blah.

 

OK. I'll type slow so you can follow this...

 

Isn't your salary - not takehome pay here, but your actual salary - equivalent to that? If you didn't have to pay taxes, and pay everything it costs to stay alive to earn that salary, you'd actually have all that money in your hand. Same with a business... if they didn't have to pay their taxes, and pay everything it costs to stay in business to earn those sales, they'd actually have all that money in their hands. Maybe I'm just one dumb motherfucker, but by that logic, total sales for a business is equal your salary - both are mythical numbers that you're never going to see, but it's the starting point.

 

I'm ready for the next lesson whenever you are, but I think you're still trying to figure out what book we're in.

 

 

[enelson]

ok, real question about an REI coat, anyone have their down jacket that is on sale right now for like $70? the 650 fill one, any opinions, why might the other brands be better, and are they $100 better?

[climbnsparky]

ok, real question about an REI coat, anyone have their down jacket that is on sale right now for like $70? the 650 fill one, any opinions, why might the other brands be better, and are they $100 better?

 

they are too thin. other brands will have more down in them and insulate you more.

[archenemy]

ok, real question about an REI coat, anyone have their down jacket that is on sale right now for like $70? the 650 fill one, any opinions, why might the other brands be better, and are they $100 better?

I have a down GoLite jacket that I absolutely love. You can usually get them on clearance or in the sales racks for around 70 bucks, thanks to folks returning them even when there is nothing wrong with them.

[Dahlonega]

Found this spot for those fighting the evil empire:

 

http://www.cafepress.com/buy/black/-/pv_design_prod/p_781758.10932895/pNo_10932895/id_4334687/?click=true&CMP=KNC-P-SET1

[Dechristo]

sticker for sale from the above site:

 

[enelson]

ok, real question about an REI coat, anyone have their down jacket that is on sale right now for like $70? the 650 fill one, any opinions, why might the other brands be better, and are they $100 better?

I have a down GoLite jacket that I absolutely love. You can usually get them on clearance or in the sales racks for around 70 bucks, thanks to folks returning them even when there is nothing wrong with them.

 

nice, i will keep that in mind. i have a golite poly fill i got for 30 at next adventure, had to replace the zipper for 15 bucks though! i'll keep my eye out, and if anyone see's one in a XL, help a friend out!

[rbw1966]

Campmor had down jackets for somewhere around 59 clams. Do a search for more info.

[bcollins]

I now live near Boulder, Colorado. Went in to the Boulder store in early October to buy NNNBC cross country boots. They had ONE pair of boots to purchace for a woman, period. In Boulder this happened and there was SNOW IN THE MTN'S. However I did notice in my handy catalog that I can get a marshmallow rifle!!! Luckily Boulder has at least 6 other gear shops to choose from..............