Boycott the U.S. Military

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

Stick your head in the sand, ignore the facts, boycott Newsweek, and pretend America does great things in the name of freedom.

 

We need one of those "vomit" emoticons like they got over at ascensionist.

[snoboy]

Hot link theirs.

[snugtop]

The US has an unspoken policy of torture. When we're not doing it ourselves we're outsourcing it to our "allies", handing over prisoners for "interrogation" to nations who are notorious for torture. Makes me ill to read about.

[bunglehead]

 

Disgusting.

[Jim]

This is only the tip of the iceberg. There have been a number of verified reports regarding the US practice of returning suspects in Iraq and Afganistan to other countries for torture. The idea being that we're not allowed to do it, but it's ok to send a CIA supervisor to be present while another country does it. Uzbekistan is a good example. Before 911 the US decried its prisoner human rights record. Now? - we send detainees there for inquisition. Human Rights Watch has documented the level of torture to include pulling out toenails and fingernails (chronic popular one apparantly), burns and electrical shocks to gentials, general back-alley beatings, and one person who was boiled to death. Lovely.

 

From the linked reports, and others, it looks like we have our own home-grown versions going on. It seems to be a consistent policy thread of the Bushies, no less evident than in the memos from now Attorney General Alberto "torture boy" Gonzales.

[Stonehead]

Wait a minute…what is going on here? Are you saying that we (or our leaders) have de-evolved to some Old Testament or medieval mindset? Is this not more spin? Have you not presented an entirely grotesque face on this Administration, when in fact this face is composed of a mixture of grotesque and noble?

 

For my part, I'd have to say that the photographs of the abused prisoners evoked the same sense of shock, outrage, and disgust that I felt as an objective observer when I first viewed the Rodney King video. But feelings aside, we have to make distinctions and suppress the urge to generalize, because that urge to generalize plays right into political characterization.

 

Machiavelli says, "The fact is that a man who wants to act virtuously in every way necessarily comes to grief among so many who are not virtuous." That is the central question (and here I break my own advice). How does a nation remain virtuous in a threatening world?

[Jim]

I'm not generalizing anything. I'm being quite frank and specific. Here's the gist - this administration ignores human rights of prisoners on a number of levels while invoking the mantra of "war on terrorism". This is done quite strategically while hypocritically waving the flag and boasting about freedom and democracy. There is a line between being tough in war and falling into the pit of barbarisim. Too many examples are evident that we've fallen into that pit.

[jon]

What ever you do don't watch the show 24..... they torture people and you might cry.

[mattp]

Fair enough, Stonehead, but read the Friedman editorial in the New York Times today:

 

Instead of trying to dodge and evade responsibility for what we are doing by attacking the "liberal media" and blaming it all on some rogue little guy when the problems are obviously systemic and our leaders have actually encouraged this kind of thing in statement after statement about how this is war and the Geneva Conventions don't apply, our leaders should be apologizing for what our boys have done and actually taking steps to correct this situation. Simutaneously, when we see some orchestrated rioting, or a campaign for suicide bombing or whatever it is, we should call a spade a spade and hold the religous and political leaders in Saudia Arabia and other "friendly" countries accountable for encouraging what is clearly unholy slaughter, no matter which book you adhere to.

 

The problem is, we've got ourselves into a mess and our leaders just want to avoid taking responsibility for it.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

What ever you do don't watch the show 24..... they torture people and you might cry.

 

These are real human beings, with real lives, real families, and real feelings, asshole, not some TV show. You think it's pretty funny that innocent people get tortured?

 

And we call the "radicals" and "insurgents" savage...what a load of shit.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

The problem is, we've got ourselves into a mess and our leaders just want to avoid taking responsibility for it.

 

Good point, Matt. Even beyond the situation in Iraq, this sums up the root of a lot of America's problems pretty succinctly.

[Dechristo]

...this sums up the root of the inhabitants of this planet's problems pretty succintly.

 

That's why it's known/practiced:

All is fair in Love and War.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

...this sums up the root of the inhabitants of this planet's problems pretty succintly.

 

Fair enough.

[jon]

DFA continue to live you pathetic unimpressive life with the wool pulled over your eyes believing everything you read on the internet with your false sense of how the world works.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

DFA continue to live you pathetic unimpressive life with the wool pulled over your eyes believing everything you read on the internet with your false sense of how the world works.

 

 

Yeah, you're right, the BBC is a pretty unreliable, lunatic fringe source of information. If you had actually read the link in question, you would see that they are quoting the US military's own reports. You want to call out Newsweek for jumping the gun on verifying their sources when revealing information that could put US troops in jeopardy? How about calling out the military for revealing its own thoroughly despicable practices?

 

If you want to call seeing through bullshit having "the wool pulled over your eyes," very well, but your star-spangled blindfold hardly qualifies as X-Ray Specs, holmes.

[ChrisT]

The problem is, we've got ourselves into a mess and our leaders just want to avoid taking responsibility for it.

 

I'm secretly hoping that the re-trial of Lynndie England will implicate some higher ups in the Abu Graib soap opera.

[snugtop]

I'm not generalizing anything. I'm being quite frank and specific. Here's the gist - this administration ignores human rights of prisoners on a number of levels while invoking the mantra of "war on terrorism". This is done quite strategically while hypocritically waving the flag and boasting about freedom and democracy. There is a line between being tough in war and falling into the pit of barbarisim. Too many examples are evident that we've fallen into that pit.

 

 

This is what the link I posted is about. It's sickening that in a civilized society we allow our government to skirt the Geneva Convention as well as basic principles of decency, and facilitate the torture of people who will never ever see the inside of a court of law...it's incredibly scary.

 

This to me is the real issue. The Newsweek story is just a great excuse to ignore what's really going on. No news source will ever be 100% reliable (not that they shouldn't try to be however) The fact is that there are so many documented cases of abuse that cannot be ignored. Blame Newsweek for getting the details of one of these cases wrong (if indeed they did) and you're pulling the wool over your eyes...

[jon]

I read the link in question. I don't see what is so outrageous about it that you have to wig out about it. Yeah people get tortured, tough shit, it's only been happening for thousands of years. I'm all for torturing, get all those terrorist and child molesters and rapists in one room and just fuck them up. Should innocent people be tortured? Who would answer yes besides maybe..... Saddam Hussein and his deceased sons. Do you really think they are knowingly torturing innocent people over there?

 

Star spangled blindfold, that's cute, you come up with that yourself?

[knelson]

...Do you really think they are knowingly torturing innocent people over there?

 

Knowingly?... no.

 

Taking the time to figure out if they have a taxi driver or a car bomber before torturing?...

 

-kurt

[jon]

Hey here is a story about prisoner abuse that didn't make the headlines!

 

In WWII an aircrew had to bail out over the town of Speicher, Germany. Speicher is this little shit town in the middle of nowhere in Germany. After reaching the ground the aircrew was rounded up by the townspeople only to be pitchforked to death. Upon learning this allied aircrews would save one bomb from their runs and sometimes go out of their way to "save one for Speicher".

[snugtop]

I read the link in question. I don't see what is so outrageous about it that you have to wig out about it. Yeah people get tortured, tough shit, it's only been happening for thousands of years. I'm all for torturing, get all those terrorist and child molesters and rapists in one room and just fuck them up. Should innocent people be tortured? Who would answer yes besides maybe..... Saddam Hussein and his deceased sons. Do you really think they are knowingly torturing innocent people over there?

 

Star spangled blindfold, that's cute, you come up with that yourself?

 

In a civilized society therte is no place for torture. It defies the Constitution, which prohbits cruel and unusual punishment, and it is in conflict with our basic principles of decency. It's an outrage that the administration is working on crafty ways to avoid following the Geneva Convention (by handing our prisoners over to other countries where they are almost CERTAIN to be tortured.)

 

If we torture, or allow--and in some cases facilitate--its practice how can we possibly distinguish ourselves from our "enemy"? Isn't Saddam's torture of his own citizens part of the reason cited for invadi Iraq--sorry, "freeing the Iraqi people"??

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

I read the link in question. I don't see what is so outrageous about it that you have to wig out about it. Yeah people get tortured, tough shit, it's only been happening for thousands of years. I'm all for torturing, get all those terrorist and child molesters and rapists in one room and just fuck them up. Should innocent people be tortured? Who would answer yes besides maybe..... Saddam Hussein and his deceased sons. Do you really think they are knowingly torturing innocent people over there?

 

Star spangled blindfold, that's cute, you come up with that yourself?

 

To answer your second question first, yes. Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

 

Regarding torture and who gets tortured, two things:

First, if we are going to condone torture, then we are in no position to complain when our own soldiers get the same treatment. Second, torturing innocent people (and not ensuring that the prisoners are actually criminals or terrorists) gives the U.S. no leg to stand on. You bring up Hussein as a direct comparison; it's a good one. Is the America you stand for a country that acts like the dictator it violently deposed?

 

And, alas, your failure to see the value in human life beyond the borders of this country is the same sort of position that landed this country in this downward-spiraling vicious cycle of violence. Are our tactics effective when incidents of terrorism have multiplied since the U.S. began its "war on terror?" If this was a school program, its funding would have been cut long ago.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

Hey here is a story about prisoner abuse that didn't make the headlines!

 

In WWII an aircrew had to bail out over the town of Speicher, Germany. Speicher is this little shit town in the middle of nowhere in Germany. After reaching the ground the aircrew was rounded up by the townspeople only to be pitchforked to death. Upon learning this allied aircrews would save one bomb from their runs and sometimes go out of their way to "save one for Speicher".

 

Ah, sixty-year-old "news!" It does do a good job of demonstrating the pointlessness of violence and war, though; thanks for sharing!

[jon]

So when you say civilized society you mean like blowing yourself up inside of a pizza parlor, flying airplanes into buildings, driving cars full of explosive through checkpoints, killing elected officials of a newly free goverment to a country of which you aren't even a citizen of?

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

So when you say civilized society you mean like blowing yourself up inside of a pizza parlor, flying airplanes into buildings, driving cars full of explosive through checkpoints, killing elected officials of a newly free goverment to a country of which you aren't even a citizen of?

 

So, we should use the actions we decry and claim to stand against as a yardstick for how low our own country should sink? Nice justification.