linking ropes

[David Trippett]

how does everyone like to link ropes for rappel and why? i like single overhand and ~50cm tails.....please feel free to sound/slag off. thanks in advance.

[letsroll]

I have done the overhand and would put in two overhand knots. The second is a backup of the first with tails on the second.

[chesterboo]

I have always done double fisherman's. I think in Twight's book he reccomends some overhand variation if I remember correctly. I guess with 50cm tails I be worried about getting it hung up pulling it down but maybe no more than the double fish.

[bonathanjarrett]

European Death Knot... aka the overhand. Leave 12 to 15 inches of tail and cinch it down tight! Don't use this knot if you have more than 2.5 mm difference between rope diameters or the ropes are icy. Also don't tie an overhand knot in the tails. Doing so negates the benefit of the knot to begin with. This is a scary looking knot (hence the tongue in cheek name). However under the low load situations in rappelling it is more than adequately strong. I believe this is the knot currently suggested by the AMGA.

[catbirdseat]

Even if you tie a backup knot in the tails, the EDK is still less prone to hanging up than the double fisherman knot (or any other knot). It is the only knot (that I know of) that rolls away from whatever edge it may be passing over.

[Yos]

It is the only knot (that I know of) that rolls away from whatever edge it may be passing over.

 

I’ve got a bootied 60m that says otherwise.

[fenderfour]

The American Death Knot is another option - A figure eight knot tied with both ropes. Leave a long tail with this one as well.

[catbirdseat]

The "American Death Knot" is a true death knot. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

 

So, Mike, tell us more about that bootied 60 m rope. Are you saying their backup knot caught in a crack or something? You know for sure that it would not have caught had it not been for the backup knot?

[matt_m]

The American Death Knot is another option - A figure eight knot tied with both ropes. Leave a long tail with this one as well.

 

2nd the statement that the ADK IS actually a death knot. Rock and Ice and several other sources have stated and it's been tested that the ADK is EXTREMELY dangerous - when loaded the knot rolls on itself but doesn't cinch down nearly as well as the EDK. I think there was a rap accident in AINAM where this happened. Stay away from the ADK.

 

That said - I usually use the EDK with 12in or so tails and tighten the hell out of it before rapping. Weird ropes or long, smooth raps (eg Royal arches) I'll use the double fish but most other places like Ref Rocks - EDK well cleaned and pre tightened is the way to go.

[kurthicks]

I only use the EDK, but the double fish is an option for times when you're not concerned about it getting hung up or if you have ropes of significantly different sizes.

[Yos]

tell us more about that bootied 60 m rope.

 

Alpinedave and I each scored a 60m in thanks to a EDK caught in a rope groove typical of many sandstone rap stations. Knot was face down and the fist of rope caught on the edge.

[catbirdseat]

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that a double fisherman might not have been stuck in this instance? Or simply that any knot could have stuck- that the EDK isn't isn't a panacea against stuck ropes?

[fenderfour]

The "American Death Knot" is a true death knot. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

 

So, Mike, tell us more about that bootied 60 m rope. Are you saying their backup knot caught in a crack or something? You know for sure that it would not have caught had it not been for the backup knot?

 

Well, I haven't died yet, but I will stop using it. To tell the truth, I hadn't even noticed the knot roll in the manner described.

 

EDK All the way!

[cimplify]

what the F is an edk?

[swaterfall]

what the edk is an F?

[willstrickland]

Here's a very good link to testing of the EDK:

 

http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html

 

Also, note the links in the "Further Reading and Test Data on flat-knots" section, good test links there. Edelrid tested multiple flat knots but the interesting one in their link is the "flat" double fish. Hard to explain, but makes sense when you see it.

 

FWIW, I use an EDK 95% of the time (had some Korean partners in the valley who insisted on flemish bend and refused to rap on the edk I'd tied).

[catbirdseat]

That flat double fisherman knot is a new one on me. I tied it and I don't see any reason why it would not work. I appears that, like the EDK, it needs to be carefully cinched. It will not self-tighten in the same way the conventional double fisherman will. The knot would have the same ability as the EDK to rotate away from edges. I'd prefer to see actual test data before using it to rappel though.

[David Trippett]

great link "willstrickland" the flat fishermans appears to be the way to go.

[dknox]

why dont you use a butterfly? that knot seems designed for the type of tension.

 

As for that testing page, I don't understand test 12, why would you be using a figure 8 on webbing? I always use a waterknot follow thru, and can't think of a situation that you would want to use a figure 8, can anyone think of any?

[catbirdseat]

why dont you use a butterfly? that knot seems designed for the type of tension.

A butterfly knot is used on the bight. It is not used to join two ropes, although in theory, it could. I suspect that it is prone to slipping if tension is repetitively applied and released. On the bight, it's no big deal if it slips (one use of the butterfly is to isolate damaged sections of rope).

 

A butterfly would go over edges better than a standard double fisherman but not as well as an EDK or a flat double fisherman. Try it.

Edited March 30, 2005 by catbirdseat

[iain]

Look, just tie the f'ing EDK and be done with it. It is widely-used, time-tested, and lab-approved for recreational rappeling. It is used thousands of times every year with no incidents. It is approved by the AMGA for guiding purposes.

 

Or alternatively, use the time-tested double-fish if for some reason you don't believe what reality tells you, that's fine too.

 

Learn the core set of knots and get really good with them. Don't mess around with a million options. There's no point to it. Just choose and be done with it. You'll live.

 

I'm sure this topic will come up again.

[catbirdseat]

Yes, but I am a knot junkie. I can't get enough of knots.

[fenderfour]

knock-knock-knock....

 

Postman: Special Delivery, sign here.

 

CBS: <signs> Sweet! The new issue of "Barely Tied"

[David Trippett]

My Bumper Sticker....

Edited March 30, 2005 by avitripp

[catbirdseat]

I know what that knot is. It is called a Monkey Fist and it is used as a weight for throwing lines between ships, etc.