Cams as passive protection

[Stemalot]

Hello climbers,

 

Your thoughts and participation on this subject are greatly appreciated. If you have additional comments on this subject (e.g. cams as passive pro is a good/bad idea?), please feel free to share them.

 

Thank you,

[Billygoat]

How do you mean? Like wedging them in a narrowing crack like a nut? I would rather do that to a chock or a tri-cam.

 

If I had nothing else, I guess I would weld it like a bashie if necessary.

[Stemalot]

yeah, like wedging them in a narrowing crack. or like this:

 

 

the grey part is the rock

[Pandora]

Why would you place active protection passively? I think I remember reading that BD Camalots are strong enough to be placed in passive orientation, but even so it's not recommended.

[ApeMan]

Last I knew, BD Camalots were the only cams that you could use passively. The double axle keeps them from inverting.

[catbirdseat]

Last I knew, BD Camalots were the only cams that you could use passively. The double axle keeps them from inverting.

I thought that cam stops also prevent the lobes from inverting.

[Pandora]

Last I knew, BD Camalots were the only cams that you could use passively. The double axle keeps them from inverting.

I thought that cam stops also prevent the lobes from inverting.

 

Right, CBS, the dual axle functions as the cam stops on the BD model.

[Stemalot]

hum...I am conducting this poll because I am thinking about buying the new Trango MaxCams when they are available, but there seems to be an issue with them not being able to be placed like a passive pro. And I just wanted to know how many people out there use cams passively...I guess, at this point, is that most people just bring enough gear with them and not have to worry about this issue.

 

I think all the cams I've seen have some sort of mechanism to prevent the lobs from inverting. However, that's not the same as being safe to place them like a nut! The old Metolius have these weak looking pins inserted on all the lobs to prevent inverting, but I think it's suicide to place the old Melolius cams passively!

[Alpinfox]

I think it's suicide to place the old Melolius cams passively!

 

Yeah, bodyweight placement at best.

 

I wouldn't let their ability to be placed passively be the deciding factor in your choice of cams. Get the ones that you like the feel of the best - or the ones you get a screamin' deal on.

 

Personally, I think the new BD C4 cams are the best in the biz, but I haven't tried the trangos (available May 2005).

 

 

Trango MaxCams

0.5 - 0.7in-1.4in - 3oz

.75 - 0.8in-1.6in - 4oz

1.0 - 1.0in-2.0in - 4.7oz

2.0 - 1.3in-2.6in - 5.3oz

3.0 - 1.7in-3.4in - 7.1oz

4.0 - 2.4in-4.9in - 9.9oz

 

BD C4 Camalots:

.5 = .79in - 1.32in - 3.5oz

.75 = .96in - 1.6in - 4.1oz

1 = 1.2in - 2.04in - 4.8oz

2 = 1.48in - 2.56in - 5.6oz

3 = 2.04in - 3.24in - 7.2oz

4 = 2.64in - 4.56in - 9.9oz

5 = 3.44in - 5.92in - 13.6oz

6 = 4.56in - 7.8in - 19.9oz

 

Comparing the charts above, the trangos seem to be the better choice.

 

 

[skyclimb]

I use BD cams passively, occasionally. I always use sizes 1 and up, and I make sure to slot them in cracks like large hexes, really getting them to bite. Often times it reassures me to know that the passively slotted cam could save my ass in a fall. I wouln't want to worry about the cam blowing out on a fall. I guess this question just comes back to how much your life is worth?

Often times your biggest cam will become fully tipped out in a OW, and then it is very reassuring to yank that fucker into the rock, till the time when you can slide it higher to another constriction.

I recently did a route in the alabama hills of california, that was 130 of OW. I needed two or three 3.5's, a few #4's, 3's, and 1 or two smaller pieces. Unfortunatly I had only one 3.5, and two # 3's(new route, no beta). I felt very good about being able to thrash my way up a few moves with the 3.5 or 3 severly tipped out deep in the crack, till i could walk it higher to a better spot. Without this reassurance, I very well might have bailed, leaving gear behind, where possible.

my two cents

[layton]

they are good for passive pro when the crack flares out in back, but constricts below and any walking will shake it out...very common concern on basalt and tuff

[Billygoat]

The few pics I've seen of Alien failures indicated that they would NOT be good for use as passive pro.

[selkirk]

Most of the new cams with cam stops can be placed passively as well, but not all (DMM's, Rock Empire, Metolius), though anything lacking beefy cam stops can't be (i.e. Aliens, Trango Max Cams) Though i've never placed on passively so what the hell do I know?

[dbconlin]

Although I never place cams passively on purpose, it reassures me that if the cam walked, for instance, or became dislodged from its original placement, that it would be capable of holding a fall without failing in a passive mode. For this reason, I would prefer a cam capable of this, but it would not be the only deciding factor, nor would it be a deal-breaker if I liked other aspects of the cam design. That said, I use BD Camalots in larger sizes and Metolius and Aliens in smaller sizes and will probably stick with these choices, unless something better comes along. Actually, I am moving away from Metolius cams because they don't seem to stand up to much abuse. I have one that barely works anymore from being tweaked too much.

[JosephH]

Have to admit the thought has never really crossed my mind. Seems as though one would have to be ill-equipped or otherwise in a bad situation to resort to such measures. I certainly wouldn't buy cams based on that criteria.

[Buckaroo]

The only cam that I know of that will not invert in a fall is the camalot. It should not be placed like a nut, only like in the picture, and this is usually a pocket where the crack at the face is narrower.

 

Tipped out cams used as chocks can't be relied on to hold a fall, they are not designed to do so. Once it's tipped out it has no cam action, just 3 or 4 small points touching. Even in a nice tapering nut placement it will almost always rotate out.

 

Think about it, 4 small points touching, for the cam to hold each side has to have exactly the same amount of friction, if one side has a little bump in the rock it holds better and rotating on the axle even a small amount, the other side holds less the more it rotates, boom it's out.

 

Another factor is the direction of load, if the load is not exactly perpendicular to the plane of the contact points it's going to rotate regardless of friction.

 

Or think about it this way, it's a nut with 4 small points and a reverse taper loaded by an pivoting axle above the points.

[fenderfour]

Most cams with machined stops can be placed passively. I would never use them this way unless I had to. But then again, if I had to, I'd hammer a cam in like a bashie if it was going to save life or limb.

 

I would recommend that you read the literature that comes with the cams. The manufacturer knows their product a little better than the average joe.

[Buckaroo]

""Most cams with machined stops can be placed passively.""

 

but only in very specific placements, like the pocket.

 

From BD's web site PDF instructions for the camalot

 

note the universal NO symbol in the pic of the camalot (figure 9) in a passive tapering nut placement , and this is with the best possible cam, two axle.

 

http://www.bdel.com/gear/camalots.php

 

""BAD PLACEMENTS""

 

""Figure 9 shows a unit with all of the cams extended. Though the unit is strong in this position the cams are not supported securely here. The unit could twist out and the placement can fail.""

 

[fenderfour]

I would recommend that you read the literature that comes with the cams. The manufacturer knows their product a little better than the average joe.

[chucK]

[Squid]

textbook!

[Stemalot]

hahaha! that's a good one!

[David Trippett]

Hi Stemalot,

 

For what its worth...I think you should wait a year and buy the trangos....let them work out the bugs...for sure there will be issues with play in the bushings of the outer lobes as they wear. Wait for the 2nd generation. They look great though, I agree. As for passive, only time it was an issue for myself was when a camalot walked into a flaring offwidth on me....I was happy to know it would have held....but it would have mangled the cam. cheers.

[catbirdseat]

I decided to play with the Trango Max Cam, so I bought one from Jim Nelson. Thus far, I've only placed it once, so I'll reserve final judgement. Commenting on anecdotes that they walk too much, I'd say that these cams could have been made with stronger springs without the stem bending when you compress them.

 

I had a gestalt moment with regard to Camalots (Dru would probably call it a "No Duh" moment). People talk about how much they like them. They say they like the way they feel, like the extra range. They might tell you how the double axle prevents the lobes from inverting. But that is not what makes the Camalot the preferred design above all others.

 

The real reason people like these cams does indeed have to do with the double axle design. This insight came upon playing with the Max Cam (and reading the directions). You must not push the Max Cam into a crack, but rather retract the lobes completely, insert and release. Otherwise, you could get an imbalance from one side to the other, one side over cammed and the other under cammed.

 

Really any single axle cam should not just be stuffed into a crack without retracting the lobes, because you can end up with the same imbalance. Double axle cams CAN be crammed into a crack and still seat pretty well. You are still much better off placing with care, but most often you can be pretty darn careless.

 

When people talk about "walking" a big cam up an offwidth, most are talking about Camalots. You can literally just push on the stem and they'll just slide merrily along with the two lobes staying in balance. This is the true beauty of the double axle design. Forget all that other nonsense about range and what not.

 

If you are really sketched and need to get a cam shoved in quickly that will hold a fall, the Camalot has a higher probability of being placed well because of that double axle design.

[pink]

stupid post to begin with. just say it don't spray it.