Peter_Puget Posted February 16, 2005 Posted February 16, 2005 Scene #1: I lead my way up a very featured face pausing every so often and place a bolt hanging from a hook. I rate the route 5.X. Everyone calls the route free yea! Scene #2: I lead my way up a very featured face pausing every so often and rest from a hook hang from a hook. I rate the route 5.X. Everyone calls the route free yea? Scene #3: I am out of shape and a crappy free climber. I hook my way up a featured wall all on bomber hooks. Had I not had weekdays off guys for sure would have made the FA via the method in scene #1 the next weekend. They would have created the best free route in three states but since I got their first I say it stays and the route is never repeated. Am I the aid climbing equivalent of Exit 38? Quote
Dru Posted February 16, 2005 Posted February 16, 2005 #2 is not free cause you didnt redpoint it Quote
RuMR Posted February 16, 2005 Posted February 16, 2005 (edited) what are you getting at?? I hit edit instead of reply. RumR's post has not been changed Edited February 17, 2005 by Peter_Puget Quote
Peter_Puget Posted February 17, 2005 Author Posted February 17, 2005 (edited) Oh Just some idle thoughts. Dru's answer is the commonly held viewpoint but really is the free climbing any different between 1 & 2? I don't think so. The distinction is so arbitrary. 3 should speak for itself. Something I have pondered. Awhile ago MM posted several anti-bolt messages on griiped.com and yet didn't he bolt the Black Dike Route? What would he think if, as per Dru, someone bolted his 50' hook section? Just wondering. Just as a bolted free route may not be warranted a hard aid route claiming the terrain of a great free route may not be warranted. Again, the rules seem so arbitrary and often self serving. Edited February 17, 2005 by Peter_Puget Quote
Dru Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Oh Just some idle thoughts. Dru's answer is the commonly held viewpoint but really is the free climbing any different between 1 & 2? I don't think so. The distinction is so arbitrary. Whatever punter. you hang on a hook and shake the pump out whenever you want, that's called "french free" just like pulling on bolts. Quote
Gary_Yngve Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Here's a followup question. Should a gym deny you lead climb/belay priveleges if you safely French-free the lead-test route rather than free the lead-test route? Quote
Dru Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 No because gyms are training and training is very French! Quote
iain Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 what if you attach a handle to the hook, and hang on to that? Quote
AlpineK Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Oh Just some idle thoughts. Dru's answer is the commonly held viewpoint but really is the free climbing any different between 1 & 2? I don't think so. The distinction is so arbitrary. I'm having a hard time distinguishing between #1 and #2. In the case of #1 you are going to rest while you are placing the bolt, so unless you're using the hook to rest at a bunch of other spots besides where the bolts are I don't see the difference. Even in an extreme case where you drill on lead without resting on a hook you are still going to get a rest once the drill bit digs in a 1/4" or so. Quote
pope Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Scene #1: I lead my way up a very featured face pausing every so often and place a bolt hanging from a hook. I rate the route 5.X. Everyone calls the route free yea! Scene #2: I lead my way up a very featured face pausing every so often and rest from a hook hang from a hook. I rate the route 5.X. Everyone calls the route free yea? Scene #3: I am out of shape and a crappy free climber. I hook my way up a featured wall all on bomber hooks. Had I not had weekdays off guys for sure would have made the FA via the method in scene #1 the next weekend. They would have created the best free route in three states but since I got their first I say it stays and the route is never repeated. Am I the aid climbing equivalent of Exit 38? This is really stupid. So are you. Quote
Dechristo Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Hmmmmmmm.... While I was replying to an inane post by Pope, I was informed that the post to which I was replying had been deleted. Just as well... Quote
pope Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Hmmmmmmm.... While I was replying to an inane post by Pope, I was informed that the post to which I was replying had been deleted. Just as well... This is really stupid. So are you. Quote
Dechristo Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 I see trolling here for suckerfish can be quite productive. Quote
pope Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 This thread is really stupid. So are you. Quote
mattp Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 OK, let's try another: A climber establishes a new route that requires one bolt for aid. How do our opinions of this bolt differ if (1) it is a single pitch sport route, exclusively using bolts for pro. (2) it is a single pitch "trad" route, otherwise protected almost entirely by nuts and cams (3) besides its reliance on a single bolt for aid, the route is really no different than others nearby (4) apart from the use of a single bolt for aid, the route is unique for the crag in quality or the difficulty of the climbing (does it matter if it is vastly easier or harder than other routes there?) (5) the bolt comes on pitch five of a six pitch climb that is otherwise pure "trad" (6) the bolt comes on pitch five of a six pitch climb that is otherwise pure "trad" but it turns out that upon further inspection a simple short detour could have avoided the need for the bolt. In all these scenarios excxept #1, we are talking about one bolt. Why do we view them differently? Quote
RuMR Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Scene #1: I lead my way up a very featured face pausing every so often and place a bolt hanging from a hook. I rate the route 5.X. Everyone calls the route free yea! Scene #2: I lead my way up a very featured face pausing every so often and rest from a hook hang from a hook. I rate the route 5.X. Everyone calls the route free yea? Scene #3: I am out of shape and a crappy free climber. I hook my way up a featured wall all on bomber hooks. Had I not had weekdays off guys for sure would have made the FA via the method in scene #1 the next weekend. They would have created the best free route in three states but since I got their first I say it stays and the route is never repeated. Am I the aid climbing equivalent of Exit 38? This is really stupid. So are you. wow pope...so mature of you...very witty response! ProfessorPunter help you think that one up, or did you do it all by your lonesome Quote
pope Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 MattP, Rudy, et al.: I was given the impression last night that I would not be allowed to participate in this thead (funny, since the subject line includes my "middle name"). The brilliant and illuminating essay I posted last night lasted all of about 3 minutes 14 seconds before it was axed without any explanation from anybody. Anyway, in the future it might be appropriate to include at the head of each thread a list of people who will be allowed to participate. And if Peter chopped my essay, I can only conclude that he his not an "all-around nice guy" nor is he interested in hearing anybody but himself discuss ethics. Quote
MCash Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Scene #1: I lead my way up a very featured face pausing every so often and place a bolt hanging from a hook. I rate the route 5.X. Everyone calls the route free yea! Scene #2: I lead my way up a very featured face pausing every so often and rest from a hook hang from a hook. I rate the route 5.X. Everyone calls the route free yea? Scene #3: I am out of shape and a crappy free climber. I hook my way up a featured wall all on bomber hooks. Had I not had weekdays off guys for sure would have made the FA via the method in scene #1 the next weekend. They would have created the best free route in three states but since I got their first I say it stays and the route is never repeated. Am I the aid climbing equivalent of Exit 38? Scene #4 - Grady Roberts rappels off the anchors of one of Dane Burn's all traditional perfectly protectable routes at Dishman, gridbolting it at 3' on center on the way down so it "is safe to climb now." Scene #5 - Grady Roberts rappels down the Dishman cliff frusterated by a harder section of rock on a perstective line and chips it and glues a plastic hold on, then publicly proclaims it to be his masterpiece. It seams that many Spokane area climbers fully support #4 and #5, and in fact would like to do that themselves. Maybe Pope and Dwayner are pissed because the ethics of so many climbers these days Fucking Suck. Quote
catbirdseat Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 OK, let's try another: A climber establishes a new route that requires one bolt for aid. How do our opinions of this bolt differ if (1) it is a single pitch sport route, exclusively using bolts for pro. (2) it is a single pitch "trad" route, otherwise protected almost entirely by nuts and cams (3) besides its reliance on a single bolt for aid, the route is really no different than others nearby (4) apart from the use of a single bolt for aid, the route is unique for the crag in quality or the difficulty of the climbing (does it matter if it is vastly easier or harder than other routes there?) (5) the bolt comes on pitch five of a six pitch climb that is otherwise pure "trad" (6) the bolt comes on pitch five of a six pitch climb that is otherwise pure "trad" but it turns out that upon further inspection a simple short detour could have avoided the need for the bolt. In all these scenarios excxept #1, we are talking about one bolt. Why do we view them differently? (1) If it is a sport route, what is one more bolt? The important thing is climbing at a consistent grade. (2) Fine, as long as the bolt is truly for aid and isn't added to protect a run out stretch after the FA without permission of the first ascensionist. (3-5) I don't think it matters. (6) Amend the topo. Wait a while while word gets out, then chop the bolt. Quote
Peter_Puget Posted February 17, 2005 Author Posted February 17, 2005 This thread was started because of a discussion in which Alpinek asked whether the internet was a viable vehicle for discussing ethics. Due to the manner in which he asked the question his answer seemed to be no. The Erie anchor posting already had me thinking about the incredible inefficiency of arguing after the fact. Dru’s comment about bolting MM’s 50’ hook section got me thinking about the Black Dike route and the Gripped postings. I thought why not see if anyone would comment on fairly abstract discussion. For the most part people treated it like a joke. Pope entered into the debate with a brilliant essay so irrefutable that I was compelled to delete it in a vain attempt to save face. Effete insults were traded, Mattp added his list of questions, and MCCash posted his two cents, CBS attempted a real response. For the most part typical internet BS. Question answered: I am moving this to spray….spray on! Quote
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